|
Lets face it CO from the exhaust would probably include all the other horrible stuff that stinks.
Even a miss placed crank case vent put fumes in the cockpit that made me feel ill. That's my experience. So why haven't the AAIB lifted the aircraft. Surely they needed to examine the engine. If i was a operator of that type, i would want some answers. Why, is something being hidden. I'm quite sure even amateur wreck divers could bring it up. |
Originally Posted by newfoundglory
(Post 10545284)
I am currently doing the PPL, and very recently read in ground material about the possibility of fumes and/or CO entering the cockpit.
I had felt this was perhaps an exaggeration in the written material, after all, I can't ever recall ever seeing this before and was even further shocked to see this in the news today. What do I need to do? I don't remember seeing carbon monoxide detector on the student required items for purchase list..... Plenty to buy online |
Originally Posted by Auxtank
(Post 10545298)
You're missing the point by a mile - there is no pilot identification of CO poisoning to self - just a gradual loss of SA, and then unconsciousness and then seizure followed by heart failure.
You don't get "Heads Up" clues along the way. So so here are my questions. If the pilot had already demonstrated a lack of recency and a willingness to break the rules, would they have a detector onboard? If they did have a detector would they know what to do when developing a problem at night while IMC and in an area with icing conditions? Swiss cheese again? One event on its own is a problem. All added together makes for an accident. |
Originally Posted by Edward Teach
(Post 10545305)
Don't believe anything you read in the Daily Mail. Its not colloquially known as the "Daily Fail" for no reason. Absolute trash sensationalist "journalism" that has no interest whatsoever in facts. Why let facts get in the way of a good story!
As a ‘turbo prop’ They can't even get the name of the aircraft owner right, so do you believe anything else you read? The BBC has just described the aircraft as a ‘turboprop’ - perhaps we should ignore the BBC too...🙄 |
Originally Posted by Auxtank
(Post 10545298)
You're missing the point by a mile - there is no pilot identification of CO poisoning to self - just a gradual loss of SA, and then unconsciousness and then seizure followed by heart failure.
You don't get "Heads Up" clues along the way. |
Originally Posted by WHBM
(Post 10545361)
Don't you have a detector on your own aircraft ?
I wonder if decision to descend sent shock-cooling - separation of manifold from head - and CO to cockpit? |
Originally Posted by Auxtank
(Post 10545115)
Very nearly 100 pages of this thread and no-one saw that coming.
There was that accident that everybody knew was due to being overweight. Until it turned out that it wasn't. |
Add fuel to the flames
Ok, just to stoke the fire...
Bloodstream CO levels in the news has caught many here off-guard. Remember, the official post mortem cause of death is unchanged- blunt force trauma. In light of the CO reading, why has nobody speculated that this may have been a controlled descent/ controlled ditching? Crash landing in water makes blunt force tramua- fact. Crash landing causes fire- fact. Fire makes CO- fact. Could this have been an attempted ditching gone wrong... or right... Hard landing causes injuries & possible unconsciousness, meanwhile fire consumes aircraft and CO enters bloodstream. Guy in harness vanishes, but other guy sprawled out in the back is trapped and found in plane. The aircraft was in far better condition than I'd speculated prior to it's discovery- I'd initially assumed spatial disorientation (given the pilot's qualifications etc) leading to an uncontrollable crash, but in most instances that would have resulted in a large debris field and the plane in 1,000 pieces.... The plane was in tact. Underneath all the sensationalist stories there are the facts that they are based upon. Tongue in cheek... and not to cause offence to those involved.... maybe Ibbo is now sailing the Carribean on the back of his own life insurance... I heard there's cheap cruises out there during hurricane season... but what i wonder is... what kind of self-respecting seaman would willingly take on the role of Captain during a hurricane? I'll let that sink in |
What do I need to do? I don't remember seeing carbon monoxide detector on the student required items for purchase list..... The cracks in a muffler which can cause a CO leak into the heating system can be very small, and hard to detect. There are numerous Airworthiness Directives to check for this defect, but it's not full proof. If you're flying a non pressurized plane in a temperate climate, turning off cabin heat, and opening cabin air is a great way to reduce possible CO. If you have the air vent blowing at your face, it is unlikely that CO poisoning will be a risk. Turbine airplanes can use bleed air for cabin heat, which assures no CO. But aircooled piston powered planes have little choice than to use some form of combustion to produce heat. Combustion = CO, no matter what. A muffler heat exchanger which is well maintained is a good system, but defects are common, and maintenance to find them involved. If I were a renter, I would buy a few of the black dot type CO detectors, and assure that one is near my pilot position during flight in a rental. If I were a club, I would have one digital CO detector, and ask pilots to take it randomly in club airplanes, and note the results. CO is a real hazard, and if it's going to get you, you will not know as it is happening to you, unless you have a detector. And, let's keep the posts polite and on topic please.... |
Originally Posted by positiverate20
(Post 10545429)
Ok, just to stoke the fire...
In light of the CO reading, why has nobody speculated that this may have been a controlled descent/ controlled ditching? Crash landing in water makes blunt force tramua- fact. Crash landing causes fire- fact. Fire makes CO- fact. Could this have been an attempted ditching gone wrong... or right... Hard landing causes injuries & possible unconsciousness, meanwhile fire consumes aircraft and CO enters bloodstream. Yes, obviously that's what happened. I'm stunned that no one has seen this before... PDR |
Originally Posted by PDR1
(Post 10545536)
An aeroplane is "consumed by fire" while sinking in the sea, and leaving no signs of fire damage in the wreckage?
Yes, obviously that's what happened. I'm stunned that no one has seen this before... PDR What a stupid post by positiverate. It's far more likely that the CO incapacitated pilot and passenger, and the blunt force trauma killed one or both of them. I wonder if Sala was seated with his seat harness/strap securely fastened? Ibbo might even have survived the crash 🤷🏻, who knows! |
Originally Posted by Edward Teach
(Post 10545594)
I wonder if Sala was seated with his seat harness/strap securely fastened?
|
Originally Posted by GeeRam
(Post 10545656)
Err, his body was found in the wreckage, still strapped into the seat.
The official releases from the AAIB state that there was one body present in the wreckage. They make no mention of the body being strapped into the seat. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a1ad9bd727.jpg |
Originally Posted by BigEndBob
(Post 10545306)
Lets face it CO from the exhaust would probably include all the other horrible stuff that stinks.
Even a miss placed crank case vent put fumes in the cockpit that made me feel ill. G |
Originally Posted by Edward Teach
(Post 10545669)
Where have you read that? The BBC? Who also confirmed N264DB was a turboprop!
The official releases from the AAIB state that there was one body present in the wreckage. They make no mention of the body being strapped into the seat. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a1ad9bd727.jpg |
Lets face it CO from the exhaust would probably include all the other horrible stuff that stinks. Even a miss placed crank case vent put fumes in the cockpit that made me feel ill. A cracked muffler may be directly in the cabin heat system. A very cracked muffler may put noticeable exhaust into the cabin. A slightly cracked muffler may put a hazardous amount of CO into the cabin, without any noticeable exhaust smell. I have experienced this personally. It is not safe to assume that you will detect hazardous amounts of CO by smelling exhaust. |
Originally Posted by Edward Teach
(Post 10545594)
PDR ....Funnily enough they were my thoughts exactly 🤦🏻.
What a stupid post by positiverate. It's far more likely that the CO incapacitated pilot and passenger, and the blunt force trauma killed one or both of them. I wonder if Sala was seated with his seat harness/strap securely fastened? Ibbo might even have survived the crash 🤷🏻, who knows! |
|
|
The Mail has updated the story with a slant on ownership, management and maintenance of the aircraft. The mystery owner of Emiliano Sala's private plane registered the aircraft in the US using a British company paid £450-a-year to help keep their identity secret, MailOnline can reveal today. The Air Accidents Investigation Branch [AAIB], who revealed yesterday that Sala and his pilot David Ibbotson were poisoned by carbon monoxide seeping into the cabin, says its investigators have established the true identity of the UK-based owner. But it is barred from revealing who it is because the records are held by the Federal Aviation Authority [FAA] in Washington DC whose own regulations prevent this crucial information being made public. The FAA also chooses not to publish a plane's annual 'MOT' - known as a certificate of airworthiness - or when it is due to expire. More than 600 UK-based plane owners have used the same loophole because aircraft registration in America is cheaper than in Britain and maintenance costs are also understood to be lower. Airfield owner Humphrey Penney told MailOnline last night that the aircraft had 'a lot of problems' and was 'unfit to fly' in the months before it crashed in the Channel. He also claimed that regular pilot David Henderson, who was arrested and bailed in June on suspicion of manslaughter, was 'unhappy with the maintenance' and also named 45-year-old Faye Keely, an accountant from Nottinghamshire, as the owner. The ownership issue may prove vital to the question of who proves financially liable for the losses incurred by Cardiff City, who paid £15million for Sala. A criminal prosecution is likely to follow the AAIB’s final report when it is published by the end of 2019. FAA registration allows owners to protect their identity, for security or financial reasons, whereas in the UK the Civil Aviation Authority names the owner of every plane it with a UK licence. Enquiries over the past year have centred on Faye Keely's mysterious firm Cool Flourish, listed at Companies House as a management consultancy business. She is the company’s major shareholder and is listed by the companies register as resident at a property at Alfreton, Derbyshire, which is deserted and unfurnished. Another director, her sister Heather Keely, 41, has also not been traced, while a mansion listed as the home of an older former director Terence Keely - believed to be their father - is also empty. The AAIB says it cannot name the owner but a report earlier this year said the person it belonged to 'had an informal arrangement with a third party to manage the aircraft on its behalf'. Regular pilot David Henderson was expected to fly the plane from Nantes to Cardiff on January 21 this year - but has never spoken about why he pulled out only to confirm that he was alive after the flight manifest in France allegedly named him as pilot. He was arrested in June on suspicion of the manslaughter of Sala and his pilot David Ibbotson, 59, from Scunthorpe, who also perished in the air disaster, but remains on bail two months later. The doomed Piper Malibu aircraft that crashed in the Channel on January 21 was registered to a small British firm called the Southern Aircraft Consultancy which charges £450 per year to hold the plane in an American trust. The business in Bungay, Suffolk is understood to manage hundreds of aircraft registered in the same way. Mysteriously 39-year-old aircraft's listing with the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) states that there were no previous owners. And in 2015 it changed hands four times in a single day, MailOnline understands. The British engineer who inspected the Piper Malibu aircraft in the months before the crash told MailOnline was so riddled with faults that an engineer had refused to repair it, saying: 'It was not fit to be flown.' Details of owners of the aircraft have been shrouded in mystery. One person who is known to have a connection to the aircraft is David Henderson - the pilot who was reportedly due to fly it but pulled out at the 11th hour. Mr Henderson from York, was filmed by the BBC with the plane at Retford Gamston Airport in 2015 for a feature transporting small planes across continents to new owners. Humphrey Penney, who is also a licensed engineer, was asked to give a second opinion on the stricken Piper PA-46 Malibu in summer last year and said he believes that it was unsafe. He spoke out for the first time following yesterday's interim report published by the UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch which showed that 28-year-old Argentinian striker Sala and his pilot David Ibbotson were exposed to deadly levels of the toxic gas even before the private plane plunged into the English Channel. Speaking exclusively to MailOnline, Mr Penney said: 'What happened it all so sad and tragic. We had deep concerns about the plane when we looked it at a year ago. We nearly took it on but didn't because there were so many problems with it.' Mr Henderson, originally thought to be the pilot who perished on the plane, had taken it to Sandtoft Airport in Belton, North Lincolnshire, on behalf of the owner chartered accountant Faye Keely. Sandtoft boss Mr Penney, recalling his examination of the plane, said: 'Christ, this is awful! A lot needs doing.' He added: 'The hydraulic motor was a shambles and the flaps, autopilot and de-icing system weren't working and there were several other problems. There was a long list of things things that needed doing and it was going to cost an awful lot of money to put it right, in the region of £14,000 to £20,000. 'It was not in a fit state to be flown for a passenger but only in an emergency a short distance for maintenance and to get it fixed.' The American craft registered to a Trust with a beneficial British owner, Ms Keely from Bonsall, Derbyshire - a pilot herself - had come to Mr Penney for a second expert opinion from Retford Gamston Airport in Gamston, Nottinghamshire, where it had been based long term. Mr Penney said: 'It was moved here for a relatively short period and we then sent it to another organisation for the recommended work to be done. I can't comment on what work was later done.' The plane was moved to nearby Sturgate Airfield in Gainsborough, Lincolnshire. No one was available to comment when approached by MailOnline. Mr Penney added: 'I cannot say if the maintenance was done thoroughly and properly and if it was all fixed but the plane would have had an annual inspection at the end of the year. If all was good and dandy the plane should have flown safely. 'I know a very large bill for over £10,000 was presented to Faye.' Mr Penney, is now helping air investigators following the shocking crash on January 21 killing new £15 million Cardiff City striker Sala and married father Mr Ibbotson, 59, from Scunthorpe, Lincolnshire, https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...stered-US.html |
I see the DM still hasn't managed to get the owner's name right.
|
Originally Posted by runway30
(Post 10544978)
If the illegal act wasn’t the cause of death then that gets him off the hook Illegal CAT still goes on despite this sorry mess, reporting it achieves bugger all. This was a high profile accident, I know of at least 2 others, one with no injuries, one where just the pilot died. Hopefully Sala’s death may help shine a light on all the cowboys who think that what they do is acceptable practice. SND |
As an example, we used to run a early Seneca as a taxi, back in the 70s. On a trip with px, the first indication of a problem was the front seat passenger threw up suddenly. The pilot guessed the cause and shut off the heating while diverting to the nearest airfield. He then bought the a/c back to base for us to look at it. I found a hole in the stb engine cowling in front of the intake for the heating. The exhaust had cracked and the gas had burned it's way through the GRP on it's way to the intake. Since we needed the a/c the next day, I pulled the manafold for the approved welder to fix and worked late into the night at home remoulding the cowling with a slight bump to give a bit more clearance over the pipe. I told the CAA area surveyor, but I can't remember now if it resulted in any action.
I expect modding the cowling would be a no-no now. |
Maintenance on an FAA registered aircraft has to be signed off by either an FAA licenced mechanic or an FAA Approved Repair Station. Be interesting to see which in this case.
|
I am surprised and very impressed that it was possible to quantify CO-Hb in a body that had been underwater for so long - I trust they are really confident. I would have expected all the post mortem changes of pH and osmolarity to mess-up the protein 3d structure and destroy the binding sites. I guess they measure the ratio of COHb : O2Hb, but they must break down at a differential rate depending on all sorts of factors. Of course it must be very cold at depth in the English Channel which will help. I am not doubting the result, but I must say a 2nd body with the same evidence would have greatly increased the confidence this this wasn't some kind of artifact.
|
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
(Post 10546198)
I see the DM still hasn't managed to get the owner's name right.
|
Originally Posted by medod
(Post 10546728)
At this point I don't think anyone cares. You could email the journalist to correct them if you're sure it's wrong.
But they probably don't read the Daily Mail. :O |
Originally Posted by double_barrel
(Post 10546562)
I am surprised and very impressed that it was possible to quantify CO-Hb in a body that had been underwater for so long - I trust they are really confident. I would have expected all the post mortem changes of pH and osmolarity to mess-up the protein 3d structure and destroy the binding sites. I guess they measure the ratio of COHb : O2Hb, but they must break down at a differential rate depending on all sorts of factors. Of course it must be very cold at depth in the English Channel which will help. I am not doubting the result, but I must say a 2nd body with the same evidence would have greatly increased the confidence this this wasn't some kind of artifact.
|
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
(Post 10546153)
The Mail has updated the story with a slant on ownership, management and maintenance of the aircraft. Clearly a series of complicated legal cases will arise in the future. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...stered-US.html |
Originally Posted by BigEndBob
(Post 10545306)
Lets face it CO from the exhaust would probably include all the other horrible stuff that stinks...
Empirically, your logic is wrong. |
CO happens all the time. From our local paper yesterday ...
A car enthusiast died from carbon monoxide poisoning after running his engine while working on his vehicle in a garage, an inquest has heard. |
DavidReidUK
I trained a few FAA pilots on the Do328jet and ALL of them had great respect for The FAA and intended to keep their path as per rules and regs . Obsessively so in some cases.
And the FAA Inspectors I trained was a Chapter of its own. With that as my background dealing with the FAA, I find it rather odd the arrangement with the UK CAA. Now this was from 1999 to 2004 , if I remember correctly and considering the latest development in FAA with regards to lack of oversight at the heavy end of things, I suspect this tragic and avoidable accident will have consequences. In a positive was for flight safety. I suspect EASA might hold this accident against the FAA and UK CAA. I certainly do. Regards Cpt B |
The first chapter in this drama was about the credentials of the pilot. The second chapter has now started with the aircraft brought in to the drama. But by far it will be the third chapter which will be the climax, when its authors and editors are revealed to the audience.
|
Originally Posted by Chronus
(Post 10547794)
The first chapter in this drama was about the credentials of the pilot. The second chapter has now started with the aircraft brought in to the drama. But by far it will be the third chapter which will be the climax, when its authors and editors are revealed to the audience.
|
Originally Posted by Chronus
(Post 10547794)
The first chapter in this drama was about the credentials of the pilot. The second chapter has now started with the aircraft brought in to the drama. But by far it will be the third chapter which will be the climax, when its authors and editors are revealed to the audience.
|
Originally Posted by booke23
(Post 10547024)
Would this explain why it took so long for the AAIB to disclose these results? (i.e. the testing procedure in these circumstances is very protracted)
|
Double Barrel
If you use a single number in court you have to be precisely correct, if you use a confidence range the chances of it getting pulled apart by some smart lawyer are much reduced. |
Considerations regarding ownership of the aircraft involve the reasons behind the choice for N registration for an aircraft based and operating in the EU. Here is an extract from am article published in Avbuyer, https://www.avbuyer.com/articles/ga-...n-trust-112085
"3. Non-US citizens may find it difficult to register their private aircraft in their home country. The FAA has very favorable maintenance and registration requirements, and they are known for being supportive and understanding of private aviation. Some countries, however, have aircraft requirements that focus on the operations of commercial airliners. Their rules and regulations can be very onerous and burdensome to private aircraft owners. For this reason, owners may choose to register their aircraft outside of their home country. For example, in our interview with client Roger Harr, Roger pointed out that he was one of the first Cirrus owners in Europe. He bought his Cirrus before it was approved for purchase by EASA (the European Aviation Safety Agency), and the only way he could own and operate his new plane was to register it in the United States. Owners who live in countries with similar limitations on GA aircraft, may create a trust so that they can register their aircraft with the FAA in the United States." Which then acutely aggravates the all too important question that has now arisen ,given the CAA report regarding the finding of high levels of CO on the remains of the passenger. What does very favourable, supportive and understanding mean. With the B737 MAX fiasco still unresolved, and today another big article about it in the Sunday Times, does it not perhaps cast more dark shadows over the FAA and our regulators in their role of guardians of public safety. |
Originally Posted by Chronus
(Post 10548570)
What does very favourable, supportive and understanding mean. With the B737 MAX fiasco still unresolved, and today another big article about it in the Sunday Times, does it not perhaps cast more dark shadows over the FAA and our regulators in their role of guardians of public safety.
My IA has also given my recent flight reviews. He signs off my airplane and he is prepared to fly in it. That's good enough for me. The condition of a privately owned aircraft has little to do with FAA oversight or their concern with public safety. |
A forty year old aircraft that FAA records apparently show has had no previous owners before the present shady one?
Despite being an aircraft that is alleged to have changed hands four times in one day? Four times? What possible reason can there be for that if not to cover up or obfuscate ownership and accountability? An aircraft whose apparent owners' and close associates' addresses are all empty properties? An aircraft involved in an fatal accident whose owner does not make themselves known? An aircraft flown by an unlicenced pilot who appears to have identified himself at the airport of departure as someone else? Never mind the entire operating environment surrounding the damn thing viz the whole business of football/racing charters, shady 'football managers' acting as charter brokers, maintenance organisations who have walked away from it etc. To suggest this isn't an utter Pandora's Box of illegality from end to end is somewhat far-fetched, imo. |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 02:39. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.