Cherokee Lands on NY's Southern State Parkway

[GregAmy]

These are getting way too common...all times EST, info mine, via LiveATC.

N33667, based out of Republic (KFRG). Flew north of the area to do some airwork then came back for pattern work, doing touch and goes.

11:38 N33667 asks for a full stop short of another runway, declined by ATC due to prevailing winds. 667 asks for one more T&G and then a full-stop. ATC cleared 667 for that T&G at 11:40.

11:41, pilot reported "667 engine failure, putting it down on the highway." ATC offered any runway, no further response from 667.

Very soon after, airplane "7 Alpha Charlie" reported "I have a visual, he is on the highway, he looks safe...looks like he's right up on exit 33...looks like his wing hit a pole...looks like they are getting out."

News reported big fuel spill, photos show a lot of foam/retardant dumped on it. Photos also show right wing broken back, cockpit door normally open. Report is "minor injuries" (yeah, to their underwear).

Traffic is quite the snarl both ways, should be a fun commute home if they can't get it off the highway by then.

(Cannot post links due to low post count. You can Do The Google for news stories and photos)

[treadigraph]

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/351826

I know the Warrior/Archer IIs are supposed to handle better but I do prefer the Hershey bar Cherokees (this one is a Cherokee Archer) and sad to see another come to grief.

[GregAmy]

I had a discussion with bro-in-law today, who's wondering why so many highway landings/crashes lately (Caravan out of IAD, Challenger into APF, now PA28 out of FRG). I have a theory (PPSEL instrument).

Prior to recent history, instructors have BEATEN into our heads that if we have an engine failure on departure, we should land straight ahead. Find a hole and stuff it in there, ungracefully if need be. Sell the airplane to the insurance company and survive. But for years and years and years many of our fellow pilots just can't resist the urge to turn back, "the impossible turn". It's hard to look over your left shoulder, see a bunch of open land over there, and just ignore it. I'd like to think I would, but who knows...

My theory (well, it's a hypothesis)...recent events have now demonstrated to us that landing on a highway is survivable. It's do-able. It's a valid option. I listened to the ATC recording of this guy and there was no hesitation - I'm going to the highway. He was based there, and he'd thought about it. He was prepared. And he executed.

For me, this now makes three demonstrations that this option is survivable (well, except for the Challenger crew...but they were oh so close).

Would 667 have tried "the impossible turn" before IAD and APF? Who knows. But I have to think that these three cases cement to me that finding someplace straight ahead is the way to go. Even if "straight aheed" is the Southern State Parkway...ballsy move, for sure, as I have a hard time DRIVING on the damned thing at times...

Another win.

[EXDAC]

Originally Posted by treadigraph

I know the Warrior/Archer IIs are supposed to handle better

I don't know where that story started but I don't really see how the handling of the late (long fuselage, large tail) Cherokee 180 Archer can be improved on. It's simply has no bad characterisitcs.

I hope this accident isn't another - run one tank dry and crash with fuel in the unselected tank - event.

[treadigraph]

I understood from an air test I've read that the tapered wings introduced on the Warrior came with better ailerons and thus improved roll control.

As said I think the earlier aircraft look much better, but then again, as a small boy I enjoyed quite a few rides in Cherokee 140s/180s so may have some rose tinted bias! I have flown in Archer IIs several times more recently but never got to handle the controls of either iteration. Prefer the looks of the Cherokee Six to the Saratoga as well...

[slacktide]

Originally Posted by GregAmy

I had a discussion with bro-in-law today, who's wondering why so many highway landings/crashes lately (Caravan out of IAD, Challenger into APF, now PA28 out of FRG). I have a theory (PPSEL instrument).

Is that Grumman Greg Amy? If so, you would certainly have a particular interest in the difficulties of the "Impossible Turn" due to our friend Roscoe's experience.

You have to work with what you are given, within the limitations of the local geography and land use, and the performance capabilities of the airplane. I helped work this crash recovery over the weekend.

https://www.heraldnet.com/news/small...field-airport/

https://www.flightaware.com/live/fli...000Z/KPAE/KPAE

Student pilot had a loss of engine power while over open water. There is no beach to speak of (rocky coast) the shoreline is heavily developed, and the terrain rapidly rises from sea level to ~700 feet. His choice was either ditch in the water just parallel to shore (It's February...) or land in unimproved terrain. He managed to glide to shore and stuff it into a heavily forested ravine. Hit two tall but skinny alder trees right on the wing struts, hardly any damage to the fuselage. He says he hit at minimum controllable airspeed, straight in. But- he did get very very lucky! Accident happened at dusk, there's no way he could have seen and avoided the much larger diameter old-growth Douglas firs in the area, or the much more unforgiving terrain just a few hundred feet from where he hit. Given the choice, a forced landing on a flat surface is more likely to be survivable accident than a forced landing into unimproved terrain, but in either case, hitting while under control and at minimum forward speed seems to be key to survival.

[GregAmy]

Originally Posted by slacktide

Is that Grumman Greg Amy? If so, you would certainly have a particular interest in the difficulties of the "Impossible Turn" due to our friend...

One and the same... Yeah, I believe he tried a turnback after an engine failure on departure, caught the left wing, and ended up slamming the Yankee down flat on its belly on a concrete apron. He's lucky to have survived at all, though he broke his back and may never walk again...I should give him a phone call, we've not talked in a while.

Looks like your guy there had a good day. I suspect I would have opted for the water, parallel to the shoreline. Sully showed me that one was survivable, too. - GA

[Maoraigh1]

My opinion is the Hershey Bar Pa28/181 is much more stable than the Pa28/161, so an easier IIFR aircraft.
But not unpleasantly stable.

[EXDAC]

Originally Posted by Maoraigh1

My opinion is the Hershey Bar Pa28/181 is much more stable than the Pa28/161, so an easier IIFR aircraft.
But not unpleasantly stable.

Sure, but there is not one design of "Hershey Bar" PA-28. I would expect the late model extended fuselage, extended stabilator, version to have different handling from the earlier model. If it didn't why would these extensive mods have been implemented?

From TCDS 2A13 -

"XII - Model PA-28-180 (Archer), 4 PCLM (Normal Category), 2 PCLM (Utility Category), Approved May 22, 1972,
for S/N 28- E13, and 28-7305001 through 28-7505260.
This series differs from the basic PA-28-180 (Item III) by the addition of a five inch fuselage extension, wing span increase, larger horizontal tail, gross weight increase and other minor changes."

Nearly all my PA-28 experience is in a 1975 PA-28-180. I have flown earlier PA-28, including the -235 but not enough to form an opinion of their handling. With over 1,000 hours in mine I think I know it quite well.

[treadigraph]

The Cherokee 180 Challenger/Archer, Arrow II and 235 Charger all got the 5" fuselage stretch to provide more knee room for back seaters around 71/72. No idea if the Warrior also has the longer fuselage, I would have assumed so as Piper seemed to like keeping production simple!

Anyway, sad to see a nice aeroplane likely written off...

[Sillert,V.I.]

Originally Posted by treadigraph

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/351826

I know the Warrior/Archer IIs are supposed to handle better but I do prefer the Hershey bar Cherokees (this one is a Cherokee Archer) and sad to see another come to grief.

In this situation, I'd rather be in a Hershey bar model also.

I prefer the handling of the taper wing aircraft generally, but they do have one vice - they will float a long way in the flare if the speed isn't nailed. I've always found short field landings easier in the earlier type.

[EXDAC]

A bit of digging in the records suggests that this aircraft was purchased very recently. The FAA certificate date is December 2023 and the registered owner corporation was esablished in October 2023.

None of this makes me wonder any less if the engine failure was caused by having an empty tank selected. The Left/Right/Off fuel valve of the PA-28-180 requires some attention to fuel management, unlike the Both/Off valves of many other aircraft.

The Lycoming O-360-A4 is a very reliable engine.

Sad to see another PA-28-180 broken and this one come down the production line next to mine and received it's airworthiness cert on the same day.

[Compton3fox]

News footage of the landing...

Looks like a nice approach... but met with the said post and off comes the wing!
https://longisland.news12.com/occupa...way-identified

[Geriaviator]

Loved my Paro 180 for years, Hershey wing, stumpy fuselage, and utterly viceless. In and out of 400yd field no problem in moderate breeze. Trained and passed my IR, steadier platform than anything else I tried (C172, C182, 112, M20). Didn't like the T-tail Turbo Arrow. Only one moment -- severe icing FL070 near Birmingham, fist-size snowball on windscreen thermo probe within 30 seconds, handling sluggish until emergency descent into clear air and +1C at 3000ft. Even an Aztec climbing out reported icing and he had de-icing boots. Thought all the more of my little aeroplane thereafter, but kept far away from ice except in a glass. With plenty of gin.

[GregAmy]

...An examination of the wreckage by Federal Aviation Administration inspectors revealed substantial damage to the right wing. The fuel tank selector handle, which was located near the student pilot’s left leg, was found in the LEFT tank position. The left wing fuel tank was uncompromised and contained about ½ gallon of fuel. Although the flight instructor stated that he reminded the student several times to switch tanks, the student did not recall ever switching tanks during the flight. The pilots reported that there were no preaccident mechanical malfunctions or failures with the airplane that would have precluded normal operation...

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/a...ort/193824/pdf

[EXDAC]

Sad, but not surprised, to hear of yet another PA-28 that was wrecked due to attempting to fly with an empty tank selected. You have to be fairly numb on the controls not to recognize lateral imbalance in a PA-28.

I have to wonder why the instructor was not monitoring the fuel gages.

[Hot 'n' High]

Originally Posted by EXDAC

..... I have to wonder why the instructor was not monitoring the fuel gages.

Or making sure the Student was actually acting appropriately on the checks that, surely, they must have been doing in the cct. One thing "forgetting"(?) in the cruise but, flying circuits? As an Instructor, if the student was not doing (a) what they should have been doing and (b) what I was then reminding the student to do........ Once I banned a fairly experienced PPL from renting from us due to his appalling flying and his refusal to change his ways when I was first coaching and then nagging him on a simple initial check flight. It was probably my shortest de-brief ever! Two other local operators subsequently thanked me for the warning courtesy call I gave them as he drove off as neither of them had seen anything like it either when he tried with them over the next couple of days! Quite some achievement to be banned by every operator on an airfield!!!!

[340drvr]

Or, ok, I suppose at low altitude, there's not much time to do anything but fly the plane, which it sounds like (the instructor) did. But, wouldn't checking fuel selector be the 2nd thing you'd grab, after the control yoke?

[EXDAC]

"They estimated that there were about 30 gallons of fuel on board prior to departure; 17 gallons in the left tank and 13 gallons in the right tank. After airwork and emergency procedures practice, they returned to the departure airport for some takeoffs and landings. During the second approach to landing, about two hours into the flight, the student pilot advanced the throttle; however, the engine did not respond."

If they had done one check correctly they would have made the initial takeoff with the left tank selected since it was fullest. It contained an estimated 17 gals. A fuel burn of 8.5 gallons (US) per Hobbs hour is about right for a PA-28-180. NTSB found left tank selected at crash site with about half gallon remaining.

That suggests to me that the right tank was never selected during the two hour flight.

[cncpc]

Originally Posted by GregAmy

I had a discussion with bro-in-law today, who's wondering why so many highway landings/crashes lately (Caravan out of IAD, Challenger into APF, now PA28 out of FRG). I have a theory (PPSEL instrument).

Prior to recent history, instructors have BEATEN into our heads that if we have an engine failure on departure, we should land straight ahead. Find a hole and stuff it in there, ungracefully if need be. Sell the airplane to the insurance company and survive. But for years and years and years many of our fellow pilots just can't resist the urge to turn back, "the impossible turn". It's hard to look over your left shoulder, see a bunch of open land over there, and just ignore it. I'd like to think I would, but who knows...

My theory (well, it's a hypothesis)...recent events have now demonstrated to us that landing on a highway is survivable. It's do-able. It's a valid option. I listened to the ATC recording of this guy and there was no hesitation - I'm going to the highway. He was based there, and he'd thought about it. He was prepared. And he executed.

For me, this now makes three demonstrations that this option is survivable (well, except for the Challenger crew...but they were oh so close).

Would 667 have tried "the impossible turn" before IAD and APF? Who knows. But I have to think that these three cases cement to me that finding someplace straight ahead is the way to go. Even if "straight aheed" is the Southern State Parkway...ballsy move, for sure, as I have a hard time DRIVING on the damned thing at times...

Another win.

Whoa! When, since the Wright Brothers, has it ever been a subject of debate whether landing on a highway is survivable? Is landing on a runway survivable?