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Alaska Airlines 737-900 MAX loses a door in-flight out of PDX

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Alaska Airlines 737-900 MAX loses a door in-flight out of PDX

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Old 26th Jan 2024, 11:17
  #1401 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sensor_validation
Car stub axle bolts, need torque to seat bearings/seals but may have to back off a bit to get pin in?
Torque or torque + degrees & then further tightening until hole alignment is achieved is common in the automotive world.
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 12:39
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Originally Posted by tdracer
It's been repeatedly reported (including statements from the NTSB) that there was NO relationship between the pressurization warnings and the door plug.
In short, the pressurization warnings were related to an electrical hiccup in the pressurization system, not a leak or lack of pressure.
Please quit with that dead end...
So this aircraft had an in-properly installed door plug and an electrical hiccup?
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 13:44
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
I'm struggling to remember ever having torqued a nut/bolt combination that was intended to be split-pinned.
FYI: the prevailing mx guidance requires the use of at least the minimum standard torque when installing a bolt and castle nut unless specifically changed in the OEM install instructions. And the process to align the bolt hole with the castellation can vary from substituting a different washer/nut to tightening/loosing the nut until the hole aligns depending on the reference.

Originally Posted by remi
Non-unionized manufacturing employees in right to work, at will employment states know that their company has less concern for their well being than their executive office espresso drinks machine. So you will get Russian army conscript performance from them, not USAF career noncom performance.
FWIW: In my experience, I actually find the opposite to be true. And since the door plug incident is more a human factor issue at the hangar floor level than an accountant/engineer" issue at the C-suite level, I think it speaks volumes of the work being performed. Regardless, both the Spirit Aero and the Renton 737 shops are union shops for what it is worth.
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 13:53
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Originally Posted by hec7or
So this aircraft had an in-properly installed door plug and an electrical hiccup?
I've never heard of an aircraft having two independent defects simultaneously.
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 13:57
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
I've never heard of an aircraft having two independent defects simultaneously.
Um, are there not examples of aircraft despatched under MEL that then encounter a different failure? Not that rthis was the case here.

Could your point be expressed as "no 2 independent issues with similar symptons"
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 14:01
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
I've never heard of an aircraft having two independent defects simultaneously.
are they independent? loose door plug and a pressurisation problem?
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 14:07
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
I've never heard of an aircraft having two independent defects simultaneously.
Aircraft fly with multiple pending maintenance items All The Time.

Complex systems exhibit multiple unrelated failures All The Time.
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 15:07
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Originally Posted by vikingivesterled
How can some come around after the job is done and check that a castelated nut with a split pin is torqued to the right force. You would have to take the split pin out to cheque the torque. And then you would have to replace the split pin with a new one. So in practise redoing the job. No inspector / qualtity control person is going to do that so no wonder some of the bolts have been found to be loose. And you can in this case after they are mounted only see the head with hopefully a number (using something like a mirror or these days a snake cam) and the end of the bolts so that isn't a true check either.
l’d be surprised if these lock bolts were required to be “torqued” at all. For me to torque a bolt (or nut) is to apply a specific clamping load, using a torque spanner to achieve a particular lb.ft (or N.m) value, a good example being to torque a vehicle’s cylinder head bolts. The lock bolts in question need to be tight yes, but applying anything much more than that could easily distort or plastically deform the guide tracks or hinge fittings.

I’d have thought the procedure would be to screw on the castellated nuts until tight, and then tighten further up to 1/6 of a turn to allow the split pins to be inserted. Any later inspection would be simply to check for the presence of the bolts, nuts and split pins.
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 15:33
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Originally Posted by remi
Aircraft fly with multiple pending maintenance items All The Time.

Complex systems exhibit multiple unrelated failures All The Time.
I'm pretty sure the OP was making a point with humor.
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 17:34
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Originally Posted by remi
Aircraft fly with multiple pending maintenance items All The Time.

Complex systems exhibit multiple unrelated failures All The Time.
At the point where a well-known airline was being formed by banging together two predecessors, with resulting industrial action by bolshie engineers, and was attempting for the first time to introduce a new wide-body on shorthaul routes, each one of the aforesaid aircraft was at times flying with well over a hundred ADDs ...
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 18:01
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ASA9802 OKC-SEA climbing to cruise with pressurization.
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 18:17
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
I've never heard of an aircraft having two independent defects simultaneously.
DR - I had to admit I did a double take when I read that - irony indeed
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 18:56
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Originally Posted by MechEngr
The rivets is easier - if they are using ice-box rivets. These are annealed at a relatively high temperature and then flash frozen so the aluminum alloy doesn't self-harden. If they are kept too long in the freezer or left out too long they start to re-harden from a very soft state to their final high strength. If that hardening happens then instead of bucking them into a nice formed head, the aluminum rips/cracks at the periphery of the formed head. The rivet then needs to be carefully sheared off, so as to not damage the base parts that are being joined and the rivet body driven out and a new rivet installed. Process wise, it doesn't take much to get it wrong. 15 to 20 minutes out of the box, depending on how warm the factory is. If you've ever mixed up too much 5 minute epoxy for the time it takes to fit a bunch of pieces together and it hardens in the mixing cup - very similar error.

The misdrilled holes is more of a mystery to me. I thought with all the CNC equipment that mislocated holes would be a thing of the past; what has been described are "snowman" holes where a hole is drilled in the wrong location, off by a small amount, and another hole is drilled in the correct location, making what sort of looks like the two snowballs of a snowman instead of a single round hole.
By far the most common types of rivets in civil aluminium skin installation are MS20426AD (flush) and good old MS20470AD (protruding). AD means the material is 2117-T4 which is driven as-is (not icebox).

These are specified as BJ on the drawing. At one time or another I'm pretty sure most young structures engineers have dreamed about BJ-5's at night we deal with them so much.

MS204xxDD are 2024-T4 which are cold-storage rivets. They are less preferred in the shop because even though they are easier to buck, the out-time limitations are logistically painful.

I would say almost for sure the rivets in question are BJ's.

As for mis-drilling, without more info that's hard to speculate on. A misaligned jig or slight error in robot programming can lead to a whole field of mis-drilled holes.

Snowman or figure-8 or binocular holes are easy, you just install a special binocular fastener. Joke. But trust me we wish such things were possible.


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Old 26th Jan 2024, 19:33
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Now UAL3904 N37527 PSP-SFO flying pressurized.
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 20:03
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Originally Posted by tdracer
DR - I had to admit I did a double take when I read that - irony indeed
you missed this one too
Originally Posted by Bradley Hardacre
Aeronautical Engineers and manufacturers go to great effort to "add lightness" (quote from colin chapman - lotus) so pilots can add fuel.
(irony)
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 21:20
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Originally Posted by occasional
Anyone care to explain how "misdrilled holes" and "improperly installed rivets" happen ?
Measure once, drill twice, I suppose?
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 23:14
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Originally Posted by SRMman
I’d have thought the procedure would be to screw on the castellated nuts until tight, and then tighten further up to 1/6 of a turn to allow the split pins to be inserted.
How is "tight" determined? By measuring the torque!
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Old 26th Jan 2024, 23:36
  #1418 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by incompleteness
I want one of these.

Originally Posted by Bradley Hardacre Aeronautical Engineers and manufacturers go to great effort to "add lightness" (quote from colin chapman - lotus) so pilots can add fuel.
"So beancounters can add payload"
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Old 27th Jan 2024, 00:04
  #1419 (permalink)  
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If I were fitting the top safety bolts, they would be scarcely tight enough to damage the paint - and then backed off for the castelation. Those guide should not be crushed. The bottom one could tolerate a bit more torque but it's not needed.

I thought I'd read every post but I'm not sure why there's been so much talk about rivets. Someone even quoted me on some point. The only place I would be concerned about is the fastening of the top skin to the plug frame where there's splitting - that may or may not have occurred before the accident. The top row of fasteners seem to be nuts and bolts while the sides are rivets.

I'd be interested to know what I've missed . . . he said, nudgingly.
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Old 27th Jan 2024, 00:08
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Originally Posted by Loose rivets
If I were fitting the top safety bolts, they would be scarcely tight enough to damage the paint - and then backed off for the castelation. Those guide should not be crushed. The bottom one could tolerate a bit more torque but it's not needed.

I thought I'd read every post but I'm not sure why there's been so much talk about rivets. Someone even quoted me on some point. The only place I would be concerned about is the fastening of the top skin to the plug frame where there's splitting - that may or may not have occurred before the accident. The top row of fasteners seem to be nuts and bolts while the sides are rivets.

I'd be interested to know what I've missed . . . he said, nudgingly.
Fixing rivets was one of the reasons the door plug was opened/removed. The rivets themselves aren’t related directly to the failure.
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