Crosswind Landing Accident.
Join Date: Jan 2023
Location: NC
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At one time in my career, because the 707 simulator was not adequate, we used to have check new captains out on cross-wind landings on the aircraft at Prestwick or wherever we could find a sufficient cross-wind component. Each captain did at least three landings in succession. There is not much room for error on that type, the 747 was much easier.
First piece of advice - never, ever kick off the drift, instead, during the flare, gently push off the drift to remove the crab while keeping the wings level. Next piece of advice - resist the temptation to be over-active on the ailerons and rudder because that will only lead to unwanted PIOs. Third piece of advice - continue to fly the aircraft after touchdown and during the landing roll since the tendency to lift a wing only gradually reduces with airspeed.
Of course, this is easy to say but requires practice in order to coordinate it with the flare. Ideally, the transition should start at about 50ft and it is better to land with a little crab still remaining than to start too early and then drift towards the downwind edge of the runway.
First piece of advice - never, ever kick off the drift, instead, during the flare, gently push off the drift to remove the crab while keeping the wings level. Next piece of advice - resist the temptation to be over-active on the ailerons and rudder because that will only lead to unwanted PIOs. Third piece of advice - continue to fly the aircraft after touchdown and during the landing roll since the tendency to lift a wing only gradually reduces with airspeed.
Of course, this is easy to say but requires practice in order to coordinate it with the flare. Ideally, the transition should start at about 50ft and it is better to land with a little crab still remaining than to start too early and then drift towards the downwind edge of the runway.
What you have written is absolutely what I was taught flying a V bomber straight out of training and used throughout my career. That said, just a few degrees of into wind bank. 2 or 3 at most, in the flare seemed to work well on the Boeing twins (3, 5 and 6) without compromising pod clearance.
DP Davis in HTBJ emphasises the need to remove drift by pushing the rudder NOT kicking it !
Coffee finished !
RetiredBA/BY,
HTBJ by DPD was my bible. I flew with him a couple of times and sat at the master's feet
HTBJ by DPD was my bible. I flew with him a couple of times and sat at the master's feet
He certainly knew his stuff and even more importantly able put it across and teach it on.
A God given talent .
If you haven't already listened to these RAeS podcasts of DPD talking about his career and doing certification tests on various aircraft types you really need to do so. They are excellent:- D P Davies interviews on certificating aircraft
If you haven't already listened to these RAeS podcasts of DPD talking about his career and doing certification tests on various aircraft types you really need to do so. They are excellent:- D P Davies interviews on certificating aircraft
Yes - they probably have, but it depends on the aircraft type due to the need for pod clearance. The 707 was probably more critical than the 757/767 therefore the de-crab during the flare was the recommended technique. Horse for courses!!
Having flown over ten types, I have a procedure prior to the start of groundschool of studying ahead of time to be more familiar with systems. I tried this with the Airbus manuals and soon gave up as I found them to be too difficult to get a good initial understanding.
Instead, Inwatched a long series of United Airlines videos(with the understanding that there are differences). After each video, I would then compare with the Airbus section for that system, which made things much better.
One would think that such a large company, that is partly British owned, would get a Brit to write their manuals in English(or now update them). After all, they have plenty of money and it could be a safety issue. All it takes is one accident these days to harm a reputation significantly.
Instead, Inwatched a long series of United Airlines videos(with the understanding that there are differences). After each video, I would then compare with the Airbus section for that system, which made things much better.
One would think that such a large company, that is partly British owned, would get a Brit to write their manuals in English(or now update them). After all, they have plenty of money and it could be a safety issue. All it takes is one accident these days to harm a reputation significantly.
I am not trying to be clever, but I never had a problem crosswind landing Airbus FBW. Possibly because I learned crosswind landings flying small and medium turbo props, (where it is more crucial to get the handling exactly right), and we used the crossed-controls wing down method from short finals. The only things on the subject I took from the Airbus manuals and SOPs was to use the crab/de-crab technique and wings level rather than wing down.
When I transferred to the Airbus, we just needed to modify to the crab/de-crab method: Fly crabbed all the way down to the flare, offset slightly upwind of the centreline. As you flare, simultaneously gently squeeze the rudder* to yaw and align with the runway, and keep the wings level, (although I probably put in a tiny 1° or 2° of upwind wing down as I straighten to counter the advancing wing lift). If you get the timing right, the mains touch just as you complete the straightening manoeuvre.
On turbulent days it is worth knowing about partial spoiler deployment, which is a very handy feature.
*I have never understood the "kick it straight" thing. Kick it ???? Gently and smoothly squeeze the rudder, is all you need. Treat all controls gently.
Well I have put a B707 down with 360/ 28 gusting 33 kts. Straight across. Zero crab. I long time ago. If it can be done Zero crab in a 707 surely it can be done on a 737. 707 less forgiving,
admittedly the 707 was at max landing weight which makes it easier. Cargo.
That was one of my best efforts. X wind.
admittedly the 707 was at max landing weight which makes it easier. Cargo.
That was one of my best efforts. X wind.
Do not use self generated procedures based on unsubstantiated video.
Use the manufacturers recommended procedures; note the term 'maximum demonstrated' and the associated conditions.
Consider other aspects as discussed in the manufactures publications:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zq6lxugvocvhmio/A-B Crosswind presentation.pdf?dl=0
https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/app/t...tification.pdf
Use the manufacturers recommended procedures; note the term 'maximum demonstrated' and the associated conditions.
Consider other aspects as discussed in the manufactures publications:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zq6lxugvocvhmio/A-B Crosswind presentation.pdf?dl=0
https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/app/t...tification.pdf
If you dont this.
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/zCM73pHRTYepDNNX/
You get this
I believe in K.I.S. keep it simple.
Zero the drift with, sustained rudder application and hold the into wing down with sustained airleron application. This will keep the Into wind wing down.
The into wind wing diheral, will want to assist in lifting that wing, if it is not held down.
How many people on here have been taught how to side slip an aircraft? I ask, as that is the correct technic used to deal with a cross wind landing. Although the controls are crossed the airlerons are used as normal.
Correct basic flying skills. stick and rudder, near the ground were generally lost when conventional under carriage, training aircraft, disappeared.
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/zCM73pHRTYepDNNX/
You get this
I believe in K.I.S. keep it simple.
Zero the drift with, sustained rudder application and hold the into wing down with sustained airleron application. This will keep the Into wind wing down.
The into wind wing diheral, will want to assist in lifting that wing, if it is not held down.
How many people on here have been taught how to side slip an aircraft? I ask, as that is the correct technic used to deal with a cross wind landing. Although the controls are crossed the airlerons are used as normal.
Correct basic flying skills. stick and rudder, near the ground were generally lost when conventional under carriage, training aircraft, disappeared.
Last edited by RichardJones; 6th May 2024 at 11:37.
Moderator
Boeing and Airbus test pilots don't really touch the rudder on a crosswind and land drift on during their extreme crosswind testing regime
I know that when I fly a stabilized slip approach, if I can hold the slip, and runway alignment, the landing should be possible in those conditions with little difficulty. I will always train pilots to primarily slip a crosswind approach, right through to touchdown if needed. Particularly in floatplanes, where a sudden crab correction at flare could be dangerous). If those pilots, with basic skills well developed, go on to fly larger airplanes, with different recommended techniques, that's fine - it's skill building, not eroding!
I can't speak for flying, or test flying Boeings or Airbus airplanes. That said, I've done a lot of GA crosswind testing, and I have used the rudder a lot! I have done testing (up to Cessna Caravan) where the touchdown was with full rudder deflection (and then a couple of hints of same side brake to heap maintain heading). At those values, I demonstrated compliance with the crosswind handling requirement. I accept that the risk of an engine pod strike affects technique, but to fly a crab only crosswind approach seems like an unstabilized approach to me - at the last minute, a large heading change, and possible drift off the runway.
I know that when I fly a stabilized slip approach, if I can hold the slip, and runway alignment, the landing should be possible in those conditions with little difficulty. I will always train pilots to primarily slip a crosswind approach, right through to touchdown if needed. Particularly in floatplanes, where a sudden crab correction at flare could be dangerous). If those pilots, with basic skills well developed, go on to fly larger airplanes, with different recommended techniques, that's fine - it's skill building, not eroding!
I know that when I fly a stabilized slip approach, if I can hold the slip, and runway alignment, the landing should be possible in those conditions with little difficulty. I will always train pilots to primarily slip a crosswind approach, right through to touchdown if needed. Particularly in floatplanes, where a sudden crab correction at flare could be dangerous). If those pilots, with basic skills well developed, go on to fly larger airplanes, with different recommended techniques, that's fine - it's skill building, not eroding!
Well said.
For me, the basics are the same and I have used those basics right through to and including 4 engined heavy Jets.
For reference, this is how Boeing test pilots did it when demonstrating the max crosswind for the 777.
https://youtu.be/_z2LtHrn9Jw?si=HWx4zbWgoZGW-O-L
https://youtu.be/_z2LtHrn9Jw?si=HWx4zbWgoZGW-O-L
"When you can touch down, at max demonstrated crosswind for the aircraft type, on the centre line, the aircraft heading and track the same as the runway direction and maintain the above. Then you can land crosswind. This is what we aim to do right? Well if it can't be done, then it could be argued the handling pilot does not have full control of the aircraft. Or does he or she? Juggle the rudder, you are inviting trouble"
This applies to all fixed wing aircraft I have flown.
Last edited by RichardJones; 6th May 2024 at 15:40.
Moderator
For reference, this is how Boeing test pilots did it when demonstrating the max crosswind for the 777.
I opine that the test shown is a "if it can survive this, it can survive anything" type test. 'Doesn't mean it's the most graceful way to do it! And, test pilots tend to have unusually high skill and attention to task, so they can fly a crabbed, non stable approach, and still make a decent landing out of it. I've never read a Boeing 777 flight manual, but I would be surprised if the primary recommended procedure for a crosswind landing is to crab it on - But, not being a big airplane pilot, I defer to those who know!