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Crosswind Landing Accident.

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Crosswind Landing Accident.

Old 1st Apr 2024, 02:45
  #41 (permalink)  
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This ain't very pretty to watch.

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/aeDgs5pzVmpBMSpF/
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Old 1st Apr 2024, 07:34
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Can't watch it as I either need to log into Facebook or it's been removed...

Can we have a clue as to what/where/when please?
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Old 1st Apr 2024, 10:24
  #43 (permalink)  
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Let me have go. Born too far into the last century to be much good.
leave it wiv me

https://youtube.com/shorts/8o-wZQ78T_Y?si=k6W3NImlRa15jhHI

In essence, a B787 landing at LHR, crosswind, no effective corrective action attempted, before touchdown, putting the aircraft at more risk than necessary.
Not being critical of the handling pilot, as has obviously never been taught, or ALLOWED to do it properly. As demonstrated in the clip.

The second clip, there was a good attempt at corrective action.

Slip the aircraft into wind. It wont bit you! It may bite, if you don't

Last edited by RichardJones; 1st Apr 2024 at 10:49.
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Old 1st Apr 2024, 11:54
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Definitely Heathrow, landing on 09L.



Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Nor I. But you don't need to - just close the login popup, and you can view the video.
I see I have form on not seeing FB links in December - but using my laptop this afternoon rather than my phone, I can see the link after closing the "log in" box. Strange...
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Old 1st Apr 2024, 19:09
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Originally Posted by treadigraph
I see I have form on not seeing FB links in December - but using my laptop this afternoon rather than my phone, I can see the link after closing the "log in" box. Strange...
Keep that form up treadigraph, there's probably a few of us on here that don't have anything to do with FB and would like to see the action!

From what I saw I'd have thought the touch-down pretty much complete, and the go-round rather too late in the piece to really matter, FWIW.

FP.
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Old 2nd Apr 2024, 02:33
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The 604 has a really weak rudder. I have over 1000 hours on type and from memory the crosswind limit was 24 knots. I once landed at or close to this limit and needed basically full rudder and a lot of aileron to straighten the jet before touchdown . It also is very prone to float which needs to be corrected quickly.

I think it says it all they the skipper disconnected AP at 150ft. He wasnít confident or current enough to get the job done in those conditions but pressed on.
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Old 2nd Apr 2024, 21:53
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
Let me have go. Born too far into the last century to be much good.
leave it wiv me

https://youtube.com/shorts/8o-wZQ78T...W3NImlRa15jhHI

In essence, a B787 landing at LHR, crosswind, no effective corrective action attempted, before touchdown, putting the aircraft at more risk than necessary.
Not being critical of the handling pilot, as has obviously never been taught, or ALLOWED to do it properly. As demonstrated in the clip.

The second clip, there was a good attempt at corrective action.

Slip the aircraft into wind. It wont bit you! It may bite, if you don't
Rich, as I've said before, it's a long lens so it exaggerates the drift angle. It's probably a great deal less than it looks. Fair point on people not knowing how to decrab (I've flown with a few) but the issue here is the pitch PIO they get into. That's a worthwhile training theme for any TREs out there.
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Old 2nd Apr 2024, 22:08
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Originally Posted by Consol
Rich, as I've said before, it's a long lens so it exaggerates the drift angle. It's probably a great deal less than it looks. Fair point on people not knowing how to decrab (I've flown with a few) but the issue here is the pitch PIO they get into. That's a worthwhile training theme for any TREs out there.
Constructive post and Point taken. Decrab, that's the word that has been alluding me. Thankyou


Last edited by RichardJones; 3rd Apr 2024 at 08:03.
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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 06:34
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
Cinstructive post and Point taken. Decrab, that's the word that has been alluding me. Thankyou
Or the non-PC "kick off drift".
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Old 4th Apr 2024, 08:46
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For anyone unfamiliar, LHR 09L is an absolute nightmare below 200feet with a strong northerly or south/east wind. Itís a Captains only landing in many companies.

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Old 4th Apr 2024, 10:58
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Originally Posted by 3Greens
For anyone unfamiliar, LHR 09L is an absolute nightmare below 200feet with a strong northerly or south/east wind. Itís a Captains only landing in many companies.
Wish it was in mine.

Or the non-PC "kick off drift".
"Kick off" is honestly the worst advice you could give someone for landing a transport-category aircraft. Don't forget that with FBW you're actually asking the flight computers for a sideslip, not a direct surface deflection. Squeeze it in gently and the handling is sublime. Kick it and you'll regret it. It's not a PA28.
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Old 4th Apr 2024, 18:56
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Originally Posted by Fursty Ferret
Wish it was in mine.



"Kick off" is honestly the worst advice you could give someone for landing a transport-category aircraft. Don't forget that with FBW you're actually asking the flight computers for a sideslip, not a direct surface deflection. Squeeze it in gently and the handling is sublime. Kick it and you'll regret it. It's not a PA28.
Interesting indeed.
I am not qualified, therefore know nothing about FBW.

My first job in aviation was abinitio instructing. Started just after turning 20. Now the xwind landing technic i taught then is the same technique I used throughout my career, up to and including, heavy Jet Transport a/c until I retired.
Yes smoothly and graduale, does it.
The basics are the same. Why? It is a fixed wing aircraft,
After about 12 months instructing I was an ag pilot for 10 years, operating 5 different types of tailwheel a/c.,in both hemispheres .
When you were expected, to operate from an airstrip, that was scraped off a ridge in hill country you learnt how to fly crosswind, very quick. Same technique. Laterally, some of those ridge strips were and still are, shaped like a banana on its side. But I digress.
What I am trying to get across, is you cannot just drop the aircraft on the ground without initatating some form of corrective action before that. Hope that makes sense.
The most unforgiving a/c to fly in a xwind is a floatplane.. land with drift in that, it will tip over.

Last edited by RichardJones; 4th Apr 2024 at 19:31.
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Old 4th Apr 2024, 20:58
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
Interesting indeed.
I am not qualified, therefore know nothing about FBW.

My first job in aviation was abinitio instructing. Started just after turning 20. Now the xwind landing technic i taught then is the same technique I used throughout my career, up to and including, heavy Jet Transport a/c until I retired.
Yes smoothly and graduale, does it.
The basics are the same. Why? It is a fixed wing aircraft,
After about 12 months instructing I was an ag pilot for 10 years, operating 5 different types of tailwheel a/c.,in both hemispheres .
When you were expected, to operate from an airstrip, that was scraped off a ridge in hill country you learnt how to fly crosswind, very quick. Same technique. Laterally, some of those ridge strips were and still are, shaped like a banana on its side. But I digress.
What I am trying to get across, is you cannot just drop the aircraft on the ground without initatating some form of corrective action before that. Hope that makes sense.
The most unforgiving a/c to fly in a xwind is a floatplane.. land with drift in that, it will tip over.

Well said RJ...Basic skills are the same in anything I've flown...even FIFI
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Old 4th Apr 2024, 22:40
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Originally Posted by 1southernman
Well said RJ...Basic skills are the same in anything I've flown...even FIFI
FIFI?? I'm intrigued. Is that the B29 by any chance?
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Old 5th Apr 2024, 06:16
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I'd hazard a guess at the Airbus.
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Old 5th Apr 2024, 07:06
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..Some quotes from the makerīs B787 manual..``Three methods of crosswind landings..De-crab, touchdown in a crab, or the sideslip technique....The airplane can land using crab only, up to the crosswind guideline speeds....Touchdown in a crab only condition is not recommended on a dry runway in strong crosswinds..``

Fly safe,
B-757
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Old 5th Apr 2024, 07:47
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Originally Posted by B-757
..Some quotes from the makerīs B787 manual..``Three methods of crosswind landings..De-crab, touchdown in a crab, or the sideslip technique....The airplane can land using crab only, up to the crosswind guideline speeds....Touchdown in a crab only condition is not recommended on a dry runway in strong crosswinds..``

Fly safe,
B-757
It has been a while, but I seem to recall the same in the 737 (classic) FCTM. Itís unfashionable at the moment to say such things but their manuals are a lot easier to digest than the equivalent airbus material.

It may of course be that I am simply too stupid for the airbus material!
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Old 5th Apr 2024, 07:56
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At one time in my career, because the 707 simulator was not adequate, we used to have check new captains out on cross-wind landings on the aircraft at Prestwick or wherever we could find a sufficient cross-wind component. Each captain did at least three landings in succession. There is not much room for error on that type, the 747 was much easier.

First piece of advice - never, ever kick off the drift, instead, during the flare, gently push off the drift to remove the crab while keeping the wings level. Next piece of advice - resist the temptation to be over-active on the ailerons and rudder because that will only lead to unwanted PIOs. Third piece of advice - continue to fly the aircraft after touchdown and during the landing roll since the tendency to lift a wing only gradually reduces with airspeed.

Of course, this is easy to say but requires practice in order to coordinate it with the flare. Ideally, the transition should start at about 50ft and it is better to land with a little crab still remaining than to start too early and then drift towards the downwind edge of the runway.
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Old 5th Apr 2024, 08:41
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Good constructive input in the above posts👍
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Old 5th Apr 2024, 12:28
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Originally Posted by Speed_Trim_Fail
It has been a while, but I seem to recall the same in the 737 (classic) FCTM. It’s unfashionable at the moment to say such things but their manuals are a lot easier to digest than the equivalent airbus material.

It may of course be that I am simply too stupid for the airbus material!
Having flown over ten types, I have a procedure prior to the start of groundschool of studying ahead of time to be more familiar with systems. I tried this with the Airbus manuals and soon gave up as I found them to be too difficult to get a good initial understanding.

Instead, Inwatched a long series of United Airlines videos(with the understanding that there are differences). After each video, I would then compare with the Airbus section for that system, which made things much better.

One would think that such a large company, that is partly British owned, would get a Brit to write their manuals in English(or now update them). After all, they have plenty of money and it could be a safety issue. All it takes is one accident these days to harm a reputation significantly.
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