ATR 72 Royal Maroc at Valência...Oppsss
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As an SLF well familiar with ACE and ATRs I have noticed over the years that ATR operators seem to have scant regard for the touchdown zone at ACE when landing 03 as turn off is well down the runway. Were they carrying a little too much speed, seems he attempted to flare too high over the TZ, followed by a dirty dive, then ended up wheelbarrowing? The flare in a 72 can be tricky as there is a lot of fuselage aft of the mainwheels, it doesn't take much to tail strike. A go-around however is a must following large bounce. What was the thinking then after the large bounce, instead of a go-around a large rudder and aileron input followed by yet another dirty dive just shy of the TZ at the other end. Had the application of power been delayed another second this could have ended very differently. There was an incident in SNN some years ago where an ATR was written off following a nosewheel first touchdown where the nosewheel sheared, went around then landed without nosegear and ended up off the runway. When did this Canaryfly go-around happen, I can only see the last week on Flightradar and the aircraft flew every day. Was the aircraft withdrawn from service for a nosegear inspection, was there an FDR download to establish the G force on the nosegear?
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ATR close call...third in a row
Well...something really weird with our lovely ATR 72...after the infamous close calls with both Royal Maroc and Canaryfly, now its time with this nasty TS by AZUL...Flaming et al...
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Seems to miss le moment critique by cutting to a slow motion zoom shot but does that look like quite a lot of sink just before impact? Certainly no expert but seemed to have plenty of speed in hand as it came over the fence.
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Gnome de PPRuNe
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Flying much too fast on approach. The "only way" to get the thing down is to pitch down to the extent that the nose-wheel lands first. (Captain/PM should have called 'speed').
A turbo-prop is many new pilot's first commercial type, before which the biggest thing they flew was a Warrior or Seneca equivalent.
Brand new pilots - even type rated ones - don't always appreciate quite how important accurate speed is, and training can be very truncated. In the simulator there is usually no significant crosswind, or indeed any significant wind or turbulence. The only actual flying in the real aircraft is the three landings, performed empty on a reasonable weather day, followed by line training. So for many pilots, the first experience of real world conditions is this sort of thing, where they have to learn and make mistakes on line.
It's a bit like like new car drivers passing their test having had no instruction or driving experience on motorways, and then attempting to join a motorway and understand the lane discipline etc. for the first time ever.
I remember back in the day my turbo-prop instructor telling me to 'follow him through' on the controls to learn the subtleties of handling the flare, and cross-wind landings. Very useful.
This Captain should have corrected this approach before the flare.
A turbo-prop is many new pilot's first commercial type, before which the biggest thing they flew was a Warrior or Seneca equivalent.
Brand new pilots - even type rated ones - don't always appreciate quite how important accurate speed is, and training can be very truncated. In the simulator there is usually no significant crosswind, or indeed any significant wind or turbulence. The only actual flying in the real aircraft is the three landings, performed empty on a reasonable weather day, followed by line training. So for many pilots, the first experience of real world conditions is this sort of thing, where they have to learn and make mistakes on line.
It's a bit like like new car drivers passing their test having had no instruction or driving experience on motorways, and then attempting to join a motorway and understand the lane discipline etc. for the first time ever.
I remember back in the day my turbo-prop instructor telling me to 'follow him through' on the controls to learn the subtleties of handling the flare, and cross-wind landings. Very useful.
This Captain should have corrected this approach before the flare.
Psychophysiological entity
Power is your friend in such a situation.
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Here's the Azul incident without the close up interference, starting at 41 seconds in:
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I agree. He flared high, levelled off. The speed decreased and it dropped in. One needs to be ready for immediate power in such a situation, probably more so with aircraft susceptible to tailstikes(which the -72 is). Power to reduce the rate of descent or go-around. From memory, we had a pitch call at a certain nose-up attitude in the flare on this type and one got quite close to it for a normal flare.
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do they have any untoward handling quirks in the flare?
Maybe , With tongue in cheek ..Perhaps under stress , they used the 'reverted to previous type' phenomena .
Or ' Old habits Die Hard ' .......PA28 ..How not to video , good watching for students ..
A bit , there but for the grace of god , after 4 very happy years of UK Highlands and Islands flying .
rgds condor
Or ' Old habits Die Hard ' .......PA28 ..How not to video , good watching for students ..
A bit , there but for the grace of god , after 4 very happy years of UK Highlands and Islands flying .
rgds condor
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'Never flown an ATR, but in general, civil airplanes do not get certified if they exhibit "quirks" in handling, particularly in the flare. The standard for certification will ave wording to the effect "must not require unusual pilot skill or attention". So, I hope that the answer to your question from an ATR pilot would be "no.".
By the way, I love Hotel Mode for remote strip ops.
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In some training organisations there is far, far too much 'rush' to get onto more 'attractive' aspects of training that plodding away at getting the basics right at early stages gets missed. And then later that lack of understanding and ability comes back to bite, like that PA28 and like that ATR.
Decades ago I read an article in a GA flying magazine that said that there are now a greater percentage of nose-wheel related landing incidents since tricycle undercarriage aeroplanes became the norm than there were ground-loop or prop-strike incidents on tail-wheel aeroplanes when they were the norm. You had to be taught properly on a taildragger, while there is often too much "that will do" on a nose-wheel aeroplane.
It is not just landings that are not being taught well enough. Stalls are also a problem. Which can lead to 'experienced' airline pilots not recognising a full stall...