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ATR 72 Royal Maroc at ValÍncia...Oppsss

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ATR 72 Royal Maroc at ValÍncia...Oppsss

Old 14th Jan 2024, 20:45
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mavisbacon
Many many years ago I worked for a large central England flight training school. I was asked to come in on the weekend to finish off a couple of students because they were short of hours and their type rating training was starting on the Monday. I duly complied, but on the return approach was asked by the student to take the landing because he wasnít happy landing with a crosswind. This I did (effortlessly) but was left thinking hmm, passed all his training, passed all his tests, got a job with major airline but errr canít fly for a toffee!
Never forgotten that, stayed with me ever since.
The situation hasn't improved, from my observation. Not the students fault, as he/she has probably never been taught. Hasn't been taught as there was probably no one to teach them.
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Old 14th Jan 2024, 20:54
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Stabilized approach, look at the far end of the runway and hold it off until it stops flyingÖ
Flare or not, thatís how you avoid bending them. That guy was in a hurry and planted the aircraft in an attempt to pervert the process.
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Old 14th Jan 2024, 23:54
  #43 (permalink)  
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I'd spent quite a while on the 42 when I got a message to appear in NCL for a stint on the 72. I felt more important on the 72 so thought it'd be fun.

STN to NCL I'd got top brass on board. In fact, I think about 1/3 of the flight was company VIPs or investors. I'd got about 10 hours on the 72 in the 'retirement job' of mine so I'd show 'em how to land a plane.

I'd been warned. If you touch the throttles just before touching down, the wheels will fall off. It was in the back of my mind somewhere. Speed perfect, not a ripple in the air. Don't raise the nose too much, hold it, hold it, move throttles back a micro-tad, NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. That's what you're NOT supposed to do. I caught it with a teenzy bit of nose up. The wheels kissed the runway for 12" and then stayed about 1" above the concrete . . . courtesy of down-hillness . . . for ages and ages and ages and more ages. I knew that if I did anything the wings and the wheels would fall off. So I didn't. The aircraft must stop flying eventually, it says so in the book of planes. But when? Finally the wheels peeeeeped for their second arrival. So gentle was the sound that it took the rumble of rotation to convince me we were on the ground. Oddly, we made the planned turn off with ease and taxied maintaining a legal speed.

Someone from the office took delight in calculating the distance between landings.
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Old 15th Jan 2024, 08:01
  #44 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Loose rivets
I'd spent quite a while on the 42 when I got a message to appear in NCL for a stint on the 72. I felt more important on the 72 so thought it'd be fun.

.
Someone from the office took delight in calculating the distance between landings.
Sometimes, the data is entertaining, sometimes, just depressing. Your parable on the pleasures of the ATR 72 would have been enjoyable analysis. when I got dragged into accident investigation last time, it was one thing to be looking at accident data, and it was quite something else to be looking at the day to day run of the mill variations on theme that happen all the time, as in the QAR programs. It was a never ending fight to stop the bureaucratic response that an obvious change in conditions that occur every day is somewhat different to someone busting into the circuit at over 300 KIAS and progressing to multiple go arounds as they were leaving bite marks on the elevators. Looking at data without understanding what it is trying to tell, the holistic view, is a waste of effort IMHO.
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Old 15th Jan 2024, 09:21
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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+1 Noel; re basics not being taught properly

And other fundamentals are not always taught very well either. I eventually taught myself how to fly the Airbus FBW and side-stick combination, since the type rating instructor I had was unable to explain it or teach it.

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Old 15th Jan 2024, 22:10
  #46 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by NoelEvans
Poor basic training is so often the problem. Do not push forward when landing a tricycle (nose-wheel) undercarriage aeroplane. Full Stop.

In some training organisations there is far, far too much 'rush' to get onto more 'attractive' aspects of training that plodding away at getting the basics right at early stages gets missed. And then later that lack of understanding and ability comes back to bite, like that PA28 and like that ATR.

Decades ago I read an article in a GA flying magazine that said that there are now a greater percentage of nose-wheel related landing incidents since tricycle undercarriage aeroplanes became the norm than there were ground-loop or prop-strike incidents on tail-wheel aeroplanes when they were the norm. You had to be taught properly on a taildragger, while there is often too much "that will do" on a nose-wheel aeroplane.

It is not just landings that are not being taught well enough. Stalls are also a problem. Which can lead to 'experienced' airline pilots not recognising a full stall...
Ņ÷ňL

There is one minor problem that is not mentioned anywhere, but comes up in debriefs on events such as these, the trike going pointy bit downwards in a bounce. The driver (master of ceremonies?) sits at theft with the windows, and is at the end of an arm, from the Dunlops, CG etc. At "impact"/touchdown/alighting/caressing as applicable, where there is a substantial reaction force generated from Noootins revenge, #2 interfering with the plain just happily doing #1 until rudely interrupted, at that point, the guys in row 0 get a reminder that the plain is a series of levers, moments and sundry forces, and they all converge at the the burdmens brain in time to be included in the proprioceptor gubbins happening from the derriťre, arms, spine, neck and even the bits inboard of the wax receptors on each side of the driver, (bits that Raybans hang off). Simply, the person on the controls gets a whole lot of physiological signals all at once, and some of those are compelling, indicating that the nose is coming up fast, (thats what g loading will feel like) and their grey matter is wired for action, which includes that. Teaching pilots to set an attitude, and hold that until the noise is over is not how we teach drivers. They will respond to what they think is happening, not what is actually happening. It is quite a surprise to show the replay of data to the driver once the dust has settled, and show what the inputs were on the controls, as often as not they have no idea that they have applied the control inputs that the plain responded to, not the udder way rownd.

In simple geometry and dynamics, an aircraft that has a normal moment arm for CG and gear, will have a rebound force applied that is a slight nose down pitch input if no other control is applied. That is not a design fault, it is what makes tricycle undercarriages easier to land than conventional gear, where the reaction forces of touchdown cause a nose up pitch moment to occur, ("pin the gear"... please).

On a landing on a part 25 aircraft assuming that the aircraft is somewhere within the VS limits of a normal approach, and ground effect wipes out a component of that, once a slight flare is undertaken, holding that attitude will result in the plain arriving on the planet at some point in the near future, just by holding the attitude. To do that, as speed decays, assuming the noise has been switched from loud to soft, then a slight back pressure on the prong is required over time.

We can do better in teaching drivers, and educating them on the physiology of hard touchdowns.

When the bottom drops out of an approach, there is an attitude that should not be exceeded if paint is important to retain on the tube. mad grabs for pitch will do precious little, as lift is not an instantaneous change to AOA, there is a delay, and then there is an additional delay between lift increasing and the flight path altering. Going to a "safe place" in pitch is a starting point to save on repainting and panel beating.
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Old 16th Jan 2024, 00:09
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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On a landing on a part 25 aircraft assuming that the aircraft is somewhere within the VS limits of a normal approach, and ground effect wipes out a component of that, once a slight flare is undertaken, holding that attitude will result in the plain arriving on the planet at some point in the near future, just by holding the attitude.
To misquote Douglas Adams: "Aim at the ground, but miss for as long as possible."
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Old 16th Jan 2024, 02:28
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fdr
Ņ÷ňL
On a landing on a part 25 aircraft assuming that the aircraft is somewhere within the VS limits of a normal approach, and ground effect wipes out a component of that, once a slight flare is undertaken, holding that attitude will result in the plain arriving on the planet at some point in the near future, just by holding the attitude. To do that, as speed decays, assuming the noise has been switched from loud to soft, then a slight back pressure on the prong is required over time.

We can do better in teaching drivers, and educating them on the physiology of hard touchdowns.

When the bottom drops out of an approach, there is an attitude that should not be exceeded if paint is important to retain on the tube. mad grabs for pitch will do precious little, as lift is not an instantaneous change to AOA, there is a delay, and then there is an additional delay between lift increasing and the flight path altering. Going to a "safe place" in pitch is a starting point to save on repainting and panel beating.
The plane I bounced the most(but also had the nicest rewarding greasers) was the 727. No autospoilers at the moment of touchdown to hold you to the ground. So what do you do when you bounce? Hold the pitch and wait for it to come down again. The main gear is plenty tough. Of course, if you were to really bounce high, go around(but that didn't happen).

Getting close to the flare and the bottom starts dropping out from under you? Then add thrust to catch it and because you were ready to quickly add the thrust, it prevents the hard landing. You just have to guess at how much based on the variables of the situation and it may be a quick add of thrust followed almost immediately by a reduction. If you end up floating too much because of it, go-around(but that didn't happen).

Rapid pitch ups near the ground are usually bad news.
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