CL-215 down in Greece

[IronRoad]

Given that it appears to be a CL215, does that mean one with round motors?

[theo_xydias_youtube]

Also to mention that the fire on this spot was low germination there was no need to drop there, unless they told the boys there because they were there. Another tragic that was told now by the commander was , that after the drop they were supposed to head for a last refuel. Now whatever we say they won't come back also, as happens here in Greece they will say that the accident was a human mistake as always. (it was but we don't know yet why they went there)

[Cedrik]

Originally Posted by arf23

perhaps water bombers should be the first zero-crewed aircraft, it's probably the most dangerous flying job out there so could work well for remote control. I imagine there's a lot of on the spot judgment required as to when exactly to drop the retardant but excellent optics but especially for this should help, or have the drop controlled by a controller bird dog plane flying above the scene..

Immensely impractical, the judgment, constant reappraisal and decision making done many times during a drop could not be done from a flat screen. Extensive crew training and currency training is required, not all countries are going to do that.

[DroneDog]

Terribly sad, losing their lives whilst saving others.

Slightly sharpened image.

[compressor stall]

It looks like the RH aileron is in the correct sense there. It appears shaded. A few seconds later when it's on knife edge, the aileron doesn't look like its missing?

I wonder if the whole AOA of the wing was stuffed from the impact. Or huge drag from the underside of the wing as it was opened up.

RIP.

Edit, closer look at the clearer video above there's a weird black shadow / artefact in the video on the leading edge. Damage, and too much drag?

[DroneDog]

Originally Posted by compressor stall

It looks like the RH aileron is in the correct sense there. It appears shaded. A few seconds later when it's on knife edge, the aileron doesn't look like its missing?

I wonder if the whole AOA of the wing was stuffed from the impact. Or huge drag from the underside of the wing as it was opened up.

RIP.

Edit, closer look at the clearer video above there's a weird black shadow / artefact in the video on the leading edge. Damage, and too much drag?

Pushing the zoom

[fdr]

outboard LE damage will result in both a rolling moment and a yaw that with a high bank angle will result in the flight path angle reducing, The sharpened image may introduce artefacts, but it appears the left aileron is consistent with a full left roll input. The rudder looks neutral, which is a shame, the AOA will be quite high still, the greatest roll authority is rudder and asymmetric thrust. Aileron is just your normal roll input. The additional authority takes a time to become effective, and once the bank angle has become extreme, recovery time is very short. We have had too many losses in this area to not have a rethink or review of our tactics. Nothing is easy in this operation, except having a bad day.

[jossurf]

Dihedral-main spar

I do not like the looks of the wings dihedral in the sharpened photo.
I agree it is difficult to see…
Could the a/c have suffered prior stress to the RH wing(spar)?
Just my 2 bits worth…

[albatross]

Originally Posted by cncpc

No. Is the short answer.

Well said.

I wonder how many hours some of the pontificating “Ex Sperts” have fighting fire.

As one of my instructors warned: “It’s that one tall tree in the forest that’s going to get you!”. Good advice especially those grey dead, branchless SOBs referred to as “Chicos” in Quebec.

All my fire fighting time is in helicopters..did a lot of fixed wing fire patrol, bird dog and moving fire crews with aircraft on floats.

[Cedrik]

Originally Posted by albatross

Well said.
I wonder how many hours some of the pontificating “Ex Sperts” have fighting fire.
.

How many years have you been flying fires?

Me,15 years fires, 43 Ag.

Still you don't have to be an expert to comment, all enlightened comments welcome.

[RichardJones]

Originally Posted by albatross

Well said.

I wonder how many hours some of the pontificating “Ex Sperts” have fighting fire.

As one of my instructors warned: “It’s that one tall tree in the forest that’s going to get you!”. Good advice especially those grey dead, branchless SOBs referred to as “Chicos” in Quebec.

All my fire fighting time is in helicopters..did a lot of fixed wing fire patrol, bird dog and moving fire crews with aircraft on floats.

Me?

20k Total time. Ag flying at 21. Retired 31, before I killed myself. Bush flying, then corporate. Finished up on 4 engined heavy jets. Left school at 15. Started young, see?. I was an aviator, not an academic, by any stretch of the imagination.

Not being critical of anyone. We are all human and we all make mistakes. I just made a suggestion as to what the back ground or past experience of fire fighting pilots should be, or include in my view.. I also gave an explanation as to my reasoning.

Have a look at this clip. Great skill and bravery demonstrated. https://www.facebook.com/reel/1698189313948357?s=yWDuG2&fs=e

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by IronRoad

Given that it appears to be a CL215, does that mean one with round motors?

Yes, it was.

Though had it been built (or converted) with turboprops, it would still technically be a CL-215.

[helispotter]

Originally Posted by Cedrik

Immensely impractical, the judgment, constant reappraisal and decision making done many times during a drop could not be done from a flat screen. Extensive crew training and currency training is required, not all countries are going to do that.

I think arf23 has a valid point. It wouldn't have to be limited to monitoring a single flat screen. In fact, it should be possible to give an RPV operator an even more panoramic view than sitting in a cockpit through use of multiple cameras and multiple 'flat screens'. What is more, if 'full self driving' can be done with cars, same approach should be possible using multiple camera vision analysis to assist the RPV pilots remain within operating limit of the aircraft.

Now, the cost of implementing this, and likely developing an aircraft for such work from ground up, that might be what stops any such initiative.

[laardvark]

I'm wondering what the airspeed was at the point where the video begins .
the aircraft appears to have a high rate of descent (or rising terrain ) just before the drop .
the nose was coming up but the ROD was not arrested .
i have a lot of time survey flying in light twins at or below 150' . Mountains can get very tricky ,
had several close calls myself . There are very few rules of thumb in this scenario , it largely comes down to
eyeball judgement . I would still say birdstrike is the biggest risk , i had at least ten .

[Pilot DAR]

Posters,

Could we discuss this sad event as professionals, without the willy waving, and snarky responses please. I know that some pilots post here with excellent experience, and others are speculative and inquisitive, we can all be respectful to each other...

Pilot DAR

[Ivor_Bigunn]

Maybe this image version is a little clearer?




IB

[70 Mustang]

Leading edge damage?

The expanded images appear to show some significant damage to the leading edge of the wing that hit the trees. Perhaps some further panels extended into the airflow on the bottom side, acting like a giant scoop, causing great drag as well as loss of airflow, pulling the aircraft right and severely reduced lift, maybe even negative, or a positive downforce on that side at an already slow speed and further back pressure in a very human reaction to the continued sink with little room to maneuver.

[Compton3fox]

Juan Browne's Anaylsis of the accident...

Juan Browne's Anaylsis of the accident...

You Tube

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by Compton3fox

Juan Browne's Anaylsis of the accident...
https://youtu.be/z6BlaXqmQLA

I haven't had time to watch it yet, but I see that someone in the comments pointed out that the RH wing L/E was damaged.

Had JB not made any reference to that ?

[Compton3fox]

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK

I haven't had time to watch it yet, but I see that someone in the comments pointed out that the RH wing L/E was damaged.

Had JB not made any reference to that ?

Yes David, he does reference it.
If there are any Air Racers on here from the 80's and 90's, you will be aware of 2 incidents. One involving a fence post and the other, a buzzard and in both cases, the L/E and Wing Damage was substantial but both A/C remained controllable. Difficult to see from the video here but the damage looked no worse than the above two incidents. Of course, we don't know what else the L/E Strike may have damaged but based on what I saw during the races, L/Es can take a substantial hit and not render the A/C uncontrollable.