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Runway Incursion HNL

Old 16th Feb 2023, 23:02
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Runway Incursion HNL

From Avweb
The day after Acting FAA Administrator Billy Nolen announced he wants to hold a Safety Summit next month, CNN reported that there was a serious runway incursion involving a United Airlines 777 and Cessna Caravan at Daniel K. Inouye Airport in Honolulu on Jan. 23. The network reported the 777 crossed the runway where the Kamaka Air Caravan cargo plane was landing. The Caravan came to a stop before the crossing point of the heavy but they came within 1,170 feet of each other. It was the fourth serious incident reported since December. This month there have also been serious runway incidents at JFK and Austin. In December, an aircraft on initial climbout from Kahului Airport dropped about 1500 feet to less than 800 feet above the ocean before the crew recovered, pulling 2.7 G’s in the process.In a memo to his senior management on Tuesday Nolen said he wants to bring together leaders from all corners of aviation to discuss what some have said are ominous signs the system is weakening. “A group of commercial and general aviation leaders, labor partners, and others will examine which mitigations are working and why others appear to be not as effective as they once were,” Nolen wrote. Nolen said he also wants to know if there have been any other close calls that haven’t been made public.

“We need to mine the data to see whether there are other incidents that resemble ones we have seen in recent weeks,” he said. “And we need to see if there are indicators of emerging trends so we can focus on resources to address now.” He also wants to look at the Air Traffic Organization with an eye to reinforcing “a collaborative, data-driven safety culture.” Nolen stressed the aviation system continues to be in a safe spell and he wants to keep that going. “Now is the time to stare into the data and ask hard questions.”
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Old 16th Feb 2023, 23:56
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The first thing to say, and first thing to emphasize also, is that this post is not intended to demean or disparage the fine career of Phillip Washington, the Biden administration's nominee for FAA Administrator. As not only the cognescenti realize, his elevation from CEO of Denver Int'l Airport to the head of FAA has not drawn sufficient favor so far in the Senate.

Yet, without detracting at all from his career, take another reading of the quoted material above from Acting Administrator Billy Nolen. The point here (imo) is that in ordinary times, yes, some sort of uber-technocrat would be fine to head up FAA, even without significant aviation experience. But these times, my friends, these are not the ordinary variety. Pick a major issue, even just one, and try to convince your loyal neighborhood SLF/attorney that all you need is management finesse, even though your mind gets lost real, real fast when the discourse gets into the actual workings of the "NAS" and its many components. There are at present a good many open issues confronting the "NAS" and knowing how to manage in a general sense will not be the best choice for dealing with such issues.

And I'm putting "NAS" in quotation marks and leaving it there. The way in which Mr. Nolen articulated, or recited if you prefer, "NAS" at the Senate hearing proves something. I don' t mean pronounciation - I mean knowledge, familiarity, depth, devotion and just plain commitment. He's devoted his career to getting things right, and he knows what those things are, how they work. Like the old E.F. Hutton spot, he's acquired the right to the top job the old fashioned way - he earned it.

Bonus question at confirmation hearing: "Mr. Nominee, and I quote, 'There's no one on Two-Eight Right but you'. Discuss, please, and include your views on 'resiliency or redundancy' on one hand, and 'luck' on the other."
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Old 17th Feb 2023, 00:10
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That hotspot (HS2) at PHNL looks to be a bit of a gotcha. Upon exiting 4R at K, unless you also have clearance to cross 4L/8L, you really can’t treat K as a high speed exit. Would a heavy stopped at the K hold bar for 4L/8L even be considered clear of 4R? Consequence of a “high speed” exit stuffed between two very closely-spaced runways. However, I would also expect a United 777 crew operating to/from PHNL to be very experienced with PHNL ops.
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Old 17th Feb 2023, 04:41
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Correct. In fact it is not possible to be clear of both runways simultaneously on any of the taxiways between 4R and 4L at HNL.

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-...hort-markings/

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Old 17th Feb 2023, 10:57
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If the runways at HNL are so close to each other are they both allowed to be active at the same time?
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Old 17th Feb 2023, 15:38
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After listening to LiveATC associated with this incident, some observations:

Female FO was PF for the landing, which implies PF/PM swap after landing.

At times I had a hard time understanding the local controller due to rapidity of his speech and allowing speech to trail off at end of each transmission. Pilots seemed to understand his instructions with no difficulty.

On landing rollout, local controller says “United ah 384, you got [at?] Kilo? Female FO quickly responds, “United 384, turning left on Kilo.” Local controller immediately says, “United 384, hold short Four Left.” Response is “Hold short of Four Left, United (long pause, mic unkeyed and rekeyed) 384.” About 25 seconds later, local controller says, “United 384, continue to cross Eight Left, contact ground, point niner.”

From ADS-B data, UAL384 had a ground speed of 35 kts turning onto Kilo, 24 kts as it crossed the midpoint of 4R/4L on Kilo, and 15 kts crossing the 4L/8L intersection. There was no stop.

My initial assessment is that, upon hearing “you got [at?] Kilo,” UAL384 took this query as instruction to use Kilo, and assumed that if the local controller approved use of Kilo, approval to cross 4L/8L was either included or would follow shortly. I think the local controller was asking UAL384 if they were able (groundspeed slow enough) to turn at Kilo. By the time the UAL384 crew read back the hold short of 4L instruction, they knew they were already over the hold bar and there was no way they could safely avoid entering 4L/8L with their groundspeed.
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Old 17th Feb 2023, 16:40
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Originally Posted by Andrewgr2
If the runways at HNL are so close to each other are they both allowed to be active at the same time?
Short answer - yes, given that the Caravan and 777 were in fact landing within a minute of each other.

Longer answer - 4R/22L and 4L/22R were, historically, the "smaller aircraft" runways, while 8L/26R and 8R/26L were the widely-spaced main runways for the big guys, and oriented into the prevailing easterly tropical trade winds.

However, for United in particular, 4R (northeasterly) and the exit at K are very convenient for landings, when possible, because they exit directly to United's gates at the east end of the terminal. Saving at least a mile (and often much more) of taxiing (and taxi fuel). And HNL ATC accomodates them when they can. I'm sure United crews are well-versed in the "special needs" of using 4R and K - they just bobbled it this time and crossed the wrong line.

HNL is an oddity. The main hub airport for the Hawaiian Archipelago, constrained in area by ocean, mountains (NE) and the city of Honolulu (E). As well as sharing its runways with the military aircraft of Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam. It has a variety of abnormal procedures, including an LDA descent to 26L (with a 40° left turn on short final) to avoid overflying Waikiki (tourist) Beach, and Honolulu and its obstructions, and conducts LAHS Operations on 4L, 4R and 8L, the hold-short-of point being the intersection of K, 8L and 4L.
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Old 18th Feb 2023, 17:35
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Looking at Google Earth exiting 4R at Kilo you would cross the hold line for 4L and 8L before you cross the hold line for 4R. So there’s really no space on Kilo between the runways. I would think if ATC wanted you to exit at Kilo they would have to include a clearance to cross 4L. We just always rolled to the end since most of the time we were going to the Diamond Head ramp.
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Old 19th Feb 2023, 11:47
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A good example of the benefit of familiarizing oneself with the potential taxi route prior to landing. It can be just a brief glance to notice the hazard of the parallel runway with no taxiway in between and therefore to expect an almost immediate hold short line. Then one can plan to exit the landing runway at a fairly slow speed instead of at 60 knots or so.

That doesn’t mean that this scenario is what happened. There seems to be a tendency to let oneself get distracted doing things like after landing flow instead of focusing on taxiing/holding short.

Of course, there is always the simple “we forgot” scenario.
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Old 23rd Feb 2023, 17:06
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There's an additional remark on the chart supplement that says "WIDE BODY AND 4 ENGINE TBJTS LDG ON RY 04R ROLL TO END OF RY, NO LEFT TURN AT TWY K WO APVL", so it looks like they realize that exiting at K as if it were a true highspeed is going to be an issue. I suspect, as noted above, that once United got the instruction to exit at K, they figured they'd be rolling across the parallel, and by the time the order came to hold short, it was rather too late. From the audio on YouTube, you can sense a bit of hesitation when she reads back the hold short. I rather suspect that SOP for ATC there is not to take heavies off at K unless they do intend to keep them rolling, and the controller messed this one up. I notice again from the audio that while the pilot was asked to copy a number and call for a chat, there was no "Possible Pilot Deviation", at least as I heard it.
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Old 23rd Feb 2023, 18:51
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Old 23rd Feb 2023, 19:31
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Anyone Remembers This ? When & Where? My memory failed me.

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Old 23rd Feb 2023, 20:35
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Originally Posted by Hassan Bok
Anyone Remembers This ? When & Where? My memory failed me. https://youtube.com/shorts/50i1oqf4cqc?feature=share
video was posted two weeks ago and mentions San Francisco in the tags. As to when ?
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Old 23rd Feb 2023, 21:07
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I assume it's an attempt to reconstruct the well-known October 2017 incident at SFO.
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Old 23rd Feb 2023, 21:47
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I wonder how long it will take until the American/Delta near miss at JFK preliminary report is published?
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Old 23rd Feb 2023, 23:46
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That is a lot of detail for a preliminary report.

“The CA indicated that he was surprised by the hold short instruction since he had told approach control that they were unable to conduct LAHSO on runway 4R.”

I don’t understand the above statement. UAL384 received a clearance to land on 4R with no hold short instructions; i.e., there was no LAHSO for 4R. The full length of 4R was available to UAL384 for landing. What does a hold short of 4L instruction have to do with LAHSO?

“The CA also indicated that there doesn’t appear to be enough room for a 210’ long B777 to be fully clear of runway 4R and still hold short of runway 4L…”

Was this the first time this Captain (or FO) flew into PHNL? How was this geographical reality unexpected?

No mention of the Chart Supplement remark “WIDE BODY AND 4 ENGINE TBJTS LDG ON RY 04R ROLL TO END OF RY, NO LEFT TURN AT TWY K WO APVL.”
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Old 24th Feb 2023, 00:04
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp
I wonder how long it will take until the American/Delta near miss at JFK preliminary report is published?
Published 2/10/23. Posts 129, 130 on the associated topic/thread.
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Old 24th Feb 2023, 00:26
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Originally Posted by Hassan Bok
Anyone Remembers This ? When & Where? My memory failed me.

https://youtube.com/shorts/50i1oqf4cqc?feature=share
In that clip they didn't even hit the correct acft models...the AC was a 320, on that clip we can see a 787...the 320 vacated the same RET of previous SWA, on that clip it was passing behind the SWA to vacate on the next one(s)...here it is the correct one without any *inventions* »»»

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Old 24th Feb 2023, 02:41
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Originally Posted by BFSGrad
Published 2/10/23. Posts 129, 130 on the associated topic/thread.
Thanks BFSGrad,
I saw that report, but that was without the testimony from the American Crew. I guess I’ll have to wait for the final report 2 years from now!😤
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Old 24th Feb 2023, 12:00
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On waiting for Board-final

Regarding the likelihood of waiting for the NTSB to complete its work and publish its final report on the JFK incident:
That would be the presumed timing, no doubt, but it appears quite possible for the current situation to call for a somewhat different - though also unique - approach.

Notice that NTSB currently is working on three incidents - Hawaii, Texas, New York. Yes I'm using the names of the states on purpose. FAA reauthorization, at times in the past, has been referred to as a kind of feeding frenzy at the trough of federal funding and appropriations. Not to profess naivete but this time around seems to be shaping up differently, to some degree at least. So the Congressional committees, including not just the legislators but also the professional Hill staffers who have acquired and earned significant knowledge, expertise and experience, could very credibly coax, or pressure, NTSB at least to supplement its JFK prelim report. Heck, the APA credibly could want this too, to show that after the initial resistance, the crew members did in fact provide all the answers in their (recorded) interviews that the Board investigators asked the crew to provide.

In making this assertion I'm relying partly on the formidable appearance yesterday of the NTSB Chair, albeit dealing with a major accident in a different industry. No one single Washington authority individually can bring about broad change, let alone in a sector of the U.S. economy as large, important, and complicated as commercial aviation. That said, do not be surprised if this current NTSB Chair.... to clean this up a bit.... is more than ready, willing, able and capable of proverbially kicking be-hinds and taking names.


Last edited by WillowRun 6-3; 24th Feb 2023 at 12:29.
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