Nepal Plane Crash
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 103
Likes: 35
From: Oz
Question for any ATR pilots: In light of the fact that a Stick Pusher is fitted, presumably as a certification requirement, does the ATR have any aerodynamic pitch up characteristics approaching the stall?
Fly Safe
PJ88
Fly Safe
PJ88
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: UK
Naive question, is the Captain UOE check ride something that could cause unusual levels of anxiety? say like doing your driving test?
Also is it correct to say that the female pilot would have been in the left seat whilst the Check Airman would have been in the right seat acting out the role of first officer (even though he was PIC)?
There's a tragic and unnerving similarity in the final moments of this flight and the flight the female pilot's husband died in on 21 June 2006 mentioned in the article posted by canyonblue737
Also is it correct to say that the female pilot would have been in the left seat whilst the Check Airman would have been in the right seat acting out the role of first officer (even though he was PIC)?
There's a tragic and unnerving similarity in the final moments of this flight and the flight the female pilot's husband died in on 21 June 2006 mentioned in the article posted by canyonblue737
Last edited by chazontour; 15th January 2023 at 23:43. Reason: Missing info
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 77
Likes: 25
From: Heathrow
The thing I keep coming back to is power.
Even in cleaned up videos - there is a distinct lack of audio from the turboprops.
its almost sounds like the throttles are idle? Which seems really odd.
1. The crew didn’t seem to have height or speed to play with. The aircraft did seem unusually low.
2. aircraft is entering a sustained left bank. Factoring in point 1, id of expected to hear more noise from the turboprops as the crew compensated for the bank - both onboard and on the external video.
3. As the external video begins it already looks like a manual nose up input is in progress, before the aircraft begins its see-saw before the wing drop.
Correct me if i am wrong, but surely in that timeframe, even if the aircraft still could not be saved, i’d of expected a perceived increase in audio tone if the crew went to TOGA (when the stall started) as the aircraft impacted - but there is absolutely nothing?
That seems bizarre.
It makes me wonder if it all started to go a bit pear shaped 10-15 seconds before the ground clip started, thus the low altitude and speed was a symptom rather than the cause? It looked OK until the initial left bank - after which that begun, with no speed, the altitude started to rapidly decrease - which seems to initiate the pull back.
the onboard clip matches that - because despite there being a 2-3 second frame skip due to the nature of streaming, the aircrafts altitude prior to the skip and subsequently after, is dramatically different.
CVR / FDR will be telling.
Even in cleaned up videos - there is a distinct lack of audio from the turboprops.
its almost sounds like the throttles are idle? Which seems really odd.
1. The crew didn’t seem to have height or speed to play with. The aircraft did seem unusually low.
2. aircraft is entering a sustained left bank. Factoring in point 1, id of expected to hear more noise from the turboprops as the crew compensated for the bank - both onboard and on the external video.
3. As the external video begins it already looks like a manual nose up input is in progress, before the aircraft begins its see-saw before the wing drop.
Correct me if i am wrong, but surely in that timeframe, even if the aircraft still could not be saved, i’d of expected a perceived increase in audio tone if the crew went to TOGA (when the stall started) as the aircraft impacted - but there is absolutely nothing?
That seems bizarre.
It makes me wonder if it all started to go a bit pear shaped 10-15 seconds before the ground clip started, thus the low altitude and speed was a symptom rather than the cause? It looked OK until the initial left bank - after which that begun, with no speed, the altitude started to rapidly decrease - which seems to initiate the pull back.
the onboard clip matches that - because despite there being a 2-3 second frame skip due to the nature of streaming, the aircrafts altitude prior to the skip and subsequently after, is dramatically different.
CVR / FDR will be telling.
Last edited by RiSq; 15th January 2023 at 23:30.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 109
Likes: 52
From: Canberra
Two scenarios that fit the external footage for me:
1. Problem with power on final approach. If the approach was to the wrong runway it has to be considered. Any lack of radio calls can be explained by the crew's knowledge that they would be the only aircraft movement in the area, and therefore devoting 100% concentration to try to fly to the airport. High AoA not evident to pilot flying looking outside the cockpit trying to nurse it along, unknown thrust from engines that may have sounded ok in the cockpit, before the pilot flying finally realised that a stall is imminent. Just before the wing drop you can see the nose coming down fractionally, indicating that the stall was commencing and a push over was begun, unfortunately too late.
2. Same as 1. but pilot flying has lost situational awareness, fixated on an unfamiliar approach and allows the plane to reach high AoA before realising a stall was developing but by then it was too late. Both pilots might have been looking outside for the runway, with engines sounding normal, hand flying and the yoke being gently pulled back too far, loss of airspeed that suddenly resulted in a stall once the bank angle increased beyond a point, and from which there's no way to prevent the plunge into terrain.
But then again, looking at the footage once more, maybe what I thought was a nose down push was just the start of the stall. In which case the plane was flown all the way into the stall, something that could be explained if it was a desperate attempt to keep flying without enough thrust.
1. Problem with power on final approach. If the approach was to the wrong runway it has to be considered. Any lack of radio calls can be explained by the crew's knowledge that they would be the only aircraft movement in the area, and therefore devoting 100% concentration to try to fly to the airport. High AoA not evident to pilot flying looking outside the cockpit trying to nurse it along, unknown thrust from engines that may have sounded ok in the cockpit, before the pilot flying finally realised that a stall is imminent. Just before the wing drop you can see the nose coming down fractionally, indicating that the stall was commencing and a push over was begun, unfortunately too late.
2. Same as 1. but pilot flying has lost situational awareness, fixated on an unfamiliar approach and allows the plane to reach high AoA before realising a stall was developing but by then it was too late. Both pilots might have been looking outside for the runway, with engines sounding normal, hand flying and the yoke being gently pulled back too far, loss of airspeed that suddenly resulted in a stall once the bank angle increased beyond a point, and from which there's no way to prevent the plunge into terrain.
But then again, looking at the footage once more, maybe what I thought was a nose down push was just the start of the stall. In which case the plane was flown all the way into the stall, something that could be explained if it was a desperate attempt to keep flying without enough thrust.
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 107
Likes: 26
From: Around
I've spent two decades on the ATR (all variants) and a TRE/TRI for a good period of that. I'm not saying it to beat my chest but to make some comments reagrding this tragic accident.
- The ATR 72 has 2 flap settings (15 & 30). Its not clear from the photos or video what setting they had at the time of the stall but it appears to be flaps 15 which for that stage of the flight it should have been 30.
- ATR has a shaker and a pusher, the pusher goes off well before CLmax and is extremely forcefull. If inhibited or switch off the shaker will still rattle your cage enough to make you carry out Stall Memo items as trained (effectively, Push, Wings Level, Power as required).
- Having tested the machine in real life without the shaker and pusher activate it will drop a wing if not in balance and aerodynamically stalled. If the aircraft was in the turn then its a real possibility. There is no pitch up tendancy, quite the opposite.
- I'm not drawing any conclusions apart from saying the video shows a very nose high ATR that stalls and drops a wing. What lead to the event is unknown and nothing anybody should be speculating.
My thoughts go out to everyone on this flight and the people they left behind. It's truly a tragic event.
- The ATR 72 has 2 flap settings (15 & 30). Its not clear from the photos or video what setting they had at the time of the stall but it appears to be flaps 15 which for that stage of the flight it should have been 30.
- ATR has a shaker and a pusher, the pusher goes off well before CLmax and is extremely forcefull. If inhibited or switch off the shaker will still rattle your cage enough to make you carry out Stall Memo items as trained (effectively, Push, Wings Level, Power as required).
- Having tested the machine in real life without the shaker and pusher activate it will drop a wing if not in balance and aerodynamically stalled. If the aircraft was in the turn then its a real possibility. There is no pitch up tendancy, quite the opposite.
- I'm not drawing any conclusions apart from saying the video shows a very nose high ATR that stalls and drops a wing. What lead to the event is unknown and nothing anybody should be speculating.
My thoughts go out to everyone on this flight and the people they left behind. It's truly a tragic event.
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: Toronto
Almost certainly faked.
The impact of the crash would have sent the phone hurtling. The likely hood of it landing in such a way as to film a fire - which is in no way intense enough - is minute.
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne
My goodness, RIP to all those on board. Condolences to the families.
From some of the video stills posted looks like they are at BASE and too close to the AP?? Even to the untrained investigator or professional pilot, and pure speculation, could this simply be a case and reminder to all of us of TURNING FINAL from BASE and getting the most dangerous turn in aviation wrong?....."I am too high and too close to the airport, so I try to get the nose up to slow us down and force a gentle turn resulting in a stall and a wing drop..."
From some of the video stills posted looks like they are at BASE and too close to the AP?? Even to the untrained investigator or professional pilot, and pure speculation, could this simply be a case and reminder to all of us of TURNING FINAL from BASE and getting the most dangerous turn in aviation wrong?....."I am too high and too close to the airport, so I try to get the nose up to slow us down and force a gentle turn resulting in a stall and a wing drop..."
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 26
Likes: 6
From: Thailand
"Local media report that the aircraft was initially preparing for an approach to runway 30, but the pilot later requested an approach to runway 12.
According to the published Standard Instrument Arrival procedure, an aircraft has to intercept the Initial Approach Fix (IAF), the POK VOR located at the old airport, at a heading of 087° and then turn right for runway 12. Distance from the IAF to the runway threshold is 2,4 km (1.3 nm).
The Pokhara International Airport was opened on January 1, 2023 and is located to the east-southeast of the old Pokhara Airport. All previous flights of YT691 at the new Pokhara International Airport landed on runway 30.
At least one other ATR 72 from Kathmandu made an approach to land on runway 12 (flight YT677 on January 12), which flew to the north of the airport before turning left on base and final for runway 12 in the vicinity of POK VOR."
(Source: ASN)
According to the published Standard Instrument Arrival procedure, an aircraft has to intercept the Initial Approach Fix (IAF), the POK VOR located at the old airport, at a heading of 087° and then turn right for runway 12. Distance from the IAF to the runway threshold is 2,4 km (1.3 nm).
The Pokhara International Airport was opened on January 1, 2023 and is located to the east-southeast of the old Pokhara Airport. All previous flights of YT691 at the new Pokhara International Airport landed on runway 30.
At least one other ATR 72 from Kathmandu made an approach to land on runway 12 (flight YT677 on January 12), which flew to the north of the airport before turning left on base and final for runway 12 in the vicinity of POK VOR."
(Source: ASN)
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,515
Likes: 151
From: A better place.
Riiight.
So someone went to all the trouble of finding a video that matched the plane, landmarks etc - and then - I don't know - rendered the fire in Adobe after effects?
Occam's Razor - I suspect the simplest explanation is the correct one here - i.e the video is genuine.
So someone went to all the trouble of finding a video that matched the plane, landmarks etc - and then - I don't know - rendered the fire in Adobe after effects?
Occam's Razor - I suspect the simplest explanation is the correct one here - i.e the video is genuine.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 35
From: Hong Kong
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 650
Likes: 22
From: Jungle
Pilot Lining for the wrong airport is outrageous . This was the plane's 3rd flight on the route in 3 hours .
Pilot is very experienced . He was instructor as well . He was looking for early retirement at 60 years . Limit is 65 .
Co-Pilot is widow of a pilot who died 15 years ago . She pursued aviation to move on her husband's step . . She had about 100 hours . It was her literal last flight as a copilot to cross the 100 hour mark.
Pilot is very experienced . He was instructor as well . He was looking for early retirement at 60 years . Limit is 65 .
Co-Pilot is widow of a pilot who died 15 years ago . She pursued aviation to move on her husband's step . . She had about 100 hours . It was her literal last flight as a copilot to cross the 100 hour mark.
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
From: UK
Disclaimer : Now Confirmed from various sources of being Real Live Stream From inside
Is this for Real , the footage from Inside . 30 seconds in .The Location seem correct , it shows the Stadium . . No panic in the aircraft before the sudden roll as seen in other video . Timing of this .
Is this for Real , the footage from Inside . 30 seconds in .The Location seem correct , it shows the Stadium . . No panic in the aircraft before the sudden roll as seen in other video . Timing of this .
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 74
Likes: 9
From: Kathmandu
https://www.indiatoday.in/world/stor...869-2023-01-15
Could she be the pilot flying if it was a test ?
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: UK
Definitely a stall loss of control event - many possibilities that the investigators will look at. Weight and balance might be interesting - doubt they would be much below maximum landing weight with a full load of pax and no doubt lots of cargo/climbing equipment etc…
To me it looks like they had quite a groundspeed going on before the left turn. Maybe some strong low level valley winds leading to a windshear event coupled with high density altitude. Aerodynamics and engines much less able under such conditions. Or a nasty little inversion - quite a noticeable line of smog that might offer a clue to this sneaky little windshear clue. So perhaps not as much margin for the crew to play with as some may think.
To me it looks like they had quite a groundspeed going on before the left turn. Maybe some strong low level valley winds leading to a windshear event coupled with high density altitude. Aerodynamics and engines much less able under such conditions. Or a nasty little inversion - quite a noticeable line of smog that might offer a clue to this sneaky little windshear clue. So perhaps not as much margin for the crew to play with as some may think.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,037
Likes: 32
From: In the back of a bus
No one needs to see that except the investigators, and definitely not the familiefamicept by pre arrangement.
Hopefully something helpful can be gleaned from the video that poor man made. I think this may be the first of its kind including the post event. May he RIP
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 39
From: Wanderlust
But who will point it out through the window. The person holding the phone surely will take some support and not keep holding it unless it got stuck in the window.
de minimus non curat lex
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,510
Likes: 7
From: sunny troon
Naive question, is the Captain UOE check ride something that could cause unusual levels of anxiety? say like doing your driving test?
Also is it correct to say that the female pilot would have been in the left seat whilst the Check Airman would have been in the right seat acting out the role of first officer (even though he was PIC)?
There's a tragic and unnerving similarity in the final moments of this flight and the flight the female pilot's husband died in on 21 June 2006 mentioned in the article posted by canyonblue737
Also is it correct to say that the female pilot would have been in the left seat whilst the Check Airman would have been in the right seat acting out the role of first officer (even though he was PIC)?
There's a tragic and unnerving similarity in the final moments of this flight and the flight the female pilot's husband died in on 21 June 2006 mentioned in the article posted by canyonblue737
There is no doubt that cockpit gradient will form part of the investigation, as will the FDR/CVR.
No question is stupid if it improves your understanding. What does irritate professional pilots on PPRuNe, especially when accidents are discussed, are instant experts pontificating. The instrument procedure plates will undoubtedly clear up the matter of whether the ‘wrong’ airport was chosen. From what has been said, a circling approach was carried out overflying the original airport.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Reading, UK