Nepal Plane Crash
And while I'm at it, can we have an end to this ridiculous term "Pilot Monitoring"? "Monitor" has a colour of policing, which is the last thing we want. The term should be "Support Pilot", and I marvel so many of us have got it so wrong for so long.
"Flying Pilot", "Support Pilot", okay?
"Flying Pilot", "Support Pilot", okay?
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In A320 putting parking brake on instead of selecting flaps is the dumbest thing any one can do. The brake lever is not in line with flap lever. Brake lever rotates, flap lever needs to be squeezed and extended.
And, that is not a really old HS748... that is a modern version of the HS748...
while they got the levers right at the throttle quadrant, much else was not so brilliant. The dump valve... fire warning lights from the dark side... a fire bell that the striker was exposed to all and sundry... black over black "attitude instruments"
"call that a knife?.. this is a knife... "
while they got the levers right at the throttle quadrant, much else was not so brilliant. The dump valve... fire warning lights from the dark side... a fire bell that the striker was exposed to all and sundry... black over black "attitude instruments"
"call that a knife?.. this is a knife... "
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Re “Pilot Monitoring”.
Please write to Mr Boeing and Monsieur Airbus and get them to change their manuals if you find this annoying. It used to be pilot flying (PF) and pilot not flying (PNF) : TLAs used as the norm. PNF changed some time ago to pilot monitoring. I moved from the Boeing to the Airbus in 2014 and had used it on the the 75/76. As a trainer, I changed with the new procedure and made sure everyone else did too.
Me
Please write to Mr Boeing and Monsieur Airbus and get them to change their manuals if you find this annoying. It used to be pilot flying (PF) and pilot not flying (PNF) : TLAs used as the norm. PNF changed some time ago to pilot monitoring. I moved from the Boeing to the Airbus in 2014 and had used it on the the 75/76. As a trainer, I changed with the new procedure and made sure everyone else did too.
Me
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Even if that happens you will immediately have a clearly audible master caution and an ECAM. Pretty much impossible not to notice the slip.
Last edited by pineteam; 23rd Feb 2023 at 03:18. Reason: Correction
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I cannot understand how anyone can mistake parking brake for flap lever. It doesn't feel the same, moves differently. Though Airbus could easily inhibit it when gear is up.
Last edited by vilas; 23rd Feb 2023 at 03:51.
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I’m not going to comment directly with regards to the sad crash itself, but, the conversation in this thread is something I find very interesting.
There is a lot of talk about the selection of the wrong item and the pilot monitoring (or any other term for the pilot not flying) doing their duties correctly.
It’s something that I have considered and raised a lot over the years. I have often found myself, lets just call it PNF, and on numerous occasions the pilot flying, while I was on the radio talking to ATC or engaged in some other critical task at that point, and I notice them sitting there, pointing to a selection lever be it flaps or undercarriage, and just continuously pointing while looking at me then the lever, then back to me than the lever……..
I tend to ignore them, finish the task I was doing, then ask them, ‘did they want something’ although a lot of the time, as soon as I have finished the transmission, they say straight away “I need the flaps/undercarriage selected”. So I ask if they still want it to which they normally reply “Yes”. So I make a point of looking at the ASI, speaking out loud the air speed is within limits, then verbally announce the selection I’m making, then verbally announce the said selection is actually in transit, then verbally announce the selection has been successful. The bright people soon realise the point I’m making. The others don’t, and want to start a conversation about it. I say we will concentrate on the flight, then discuss afterwards. The amount of people that think it’s ok to just point at something, while the other person is engaged in a task and expect them to just do it amazes me.
If you need it there and then, then do it yourself and bring the other pilot into the loop as soon as they are free. If you can’t manage that yourself, then wait until the other person is free then ask for the selection, so the safety is still there to check and cross check the correct selection is made.
There is a lot of talk about the selection of the wrong item and the pilot monitoring (or any other term for the pilot not flying) doing their duties correctly.
It’s something that I have considered and raised a lot over the years. I have often found myself, lets just call it PNF, and on numerous occasions the pilot flying, while I was on the radio talking to ATC or engaged in some other critical task at that point, and I notice them sitting there, pointing to a selection lever be it flaps or undercarriage, and just continuously pointing while looking at me then the lever, then back to me than the lever……..
I tend to ignore them, finish the task I was doing, then ask them, ‘did they want something’ although a lot of the time, as soon as I have finished the transmission, they say straight away “I need the flaps/undercarriage selected”. So I ask if they still want it to which they normally reply “Yes”. So I make a point of looking at the ASI, speaking out loud the air speed is within limits, then verbally announce the selection I’m making, then verbally announce the said selection is actually in transit, then verbally announce the selection has been successful. The bright people soon realise the point I’m making. The others don’t, and want to start a conversation about it. I say we will concentrate on the flight, then discuss afterwards. The amount of people that think it’s ok to just point at something, while the other person is engaged in a task and expect them to just do it amazes me.
If you need it there and then, then do it yourself and bring the other pilot into the loop as soon as they are free. If you can’t manage that yourself, then wait until the other person is free then ask for the selection, so the safety is still there to check and cross check the correct selection is made.
Re “Pilot Monitoring”.
Please write to Mr Boeing and Monsieur Airbus and get them to change their manuals if you find this annoying. It used to be pilot flying (PF) and pilot not flying (PNF) : TLAs used as the norm. PNF changed some time ago to pilot monitoring. I moved from the Boeing to the Airbus in 2014 and had used it on the the 75/76. As a trainer, I changed with the new procedure and made sure everyone else did too.
Me
Please write to Mr Boeing and Monsieur Airbus and get them to change their manuals if you find this annoying. It used to be pilot flying (PF) and pilot not flying (PNF) : TLAs used as the norm. PNF changed some time ago to pilot monitoring. I moved from the Boeing to the Airbus in 2014 and had used it on the the 75/76. As a trainer, I changed with the new procedure and made sure everyone else did too.
Me
To try to answer sci-fi, I believe it was during the 90s and since, however the timing varies considerably by country / culture, I believe, and I am happy to be corrected.
When did they stop using the term 'Co-Pilot.'..?
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No matter what is the shape of different levers or the knobs on the FCU/MCP or the different ways they are designed to operate pilots have dialed altitude instead of heading, pressed Exped button instead of APP, selected parking brake instead of flaps and retracted flaps instead of gear. The only reason is as one gets more and more familiar with the cockpit controls pilot start reaching for them unconsciously and action them without identifying first. These are not muscle memory or unconscious actions but see and do items. This needs to be enforced and corrected when noticed otherwise a slip is just round the corner can happen any time.
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I’m not going to comment directly with regards to the sad crash itself, but, the conversation in this thread is something I find very interesting.
There is a lot of talk about the selection of the wrong item and the pilot monitoring (or any other term for the pilot not flying) doing their duties correctly.
It’s something that I have considered and raised a lot over the years. I have often found myself, lets just call it PNF, and on numerous occasions the pilot flying, while I was on the radio talking to ATC or engaged in some other critical task at that point, and I notice them sitting there, pointing to a selection lever be it flaps or undercarriage, and just continuously pointing while looking at me then the lever, then back to me than the lever……..
I tend to ignore them, finish the task I was doing, then ask them, ‘did they want something’ although a lot of the time, as soon as I have finished the transmission, they say straight away “I need the flaps/undercarriage selected”. So I ask if they still want it to which they normally reply “Yes”. So I make a point of looking at the ASI, speaking out loud the air speed is within limits, then verbally announce the selection I’m making, then verbally announce the said selection is actually in transit, then verbally announce the selection has been successful. The bright people soon realise the point I’m making. The others don’t, and want to start a conversation about it. I say we will concentrate on the flight, then discuss afterwards. The amount of people that think it’s ok to just point at something, while the other person is engaged in a task and expect them to just do it amazes me.
If you need it there and then, then do it yourself and bring the other pilot into the loop as soon as they are free. If you can’t manage that yourself, then wait until the other person is free then ask for the selection, so the safety is still there to check and cross check the correct selection is made.
There is a lot of talk about the selection of the wrong item and the pilot monitoring (or any other term for the pilot not flying) doing their duties correctly.
It’s something that I have considered and raised a lot over the years. I have often found myself, lets just call it PNF, and on numerous occasions the pilot flying, while I was on the radio talking to ATC or engaged in some other critical task at that point, and I notice them sitting there, pointing to a selection lever be it flaps or undercarriage, and just continuously pointing while looking at me then the lever, then back to me than the lever……..
I tend to ignore them, finish the task I was doing, then ask them, ‘did they want something’ although a lot of the time, as soon as I have finished the transmission, they say straight away “I need the flaps/undercarriage selected”. So I ask if they still want it to which they normally reply “Yes”. So I make a point of looking at the ASI, speaking out loud the air speed is within limits, then verbally announce the selection I’m making, then verbally announce the said selection is actually in transit, then verbally announce the selection has been successful. The bright people soon realise the point I’m making. The others don’t, and want to start a conversation about it. I say we will concentrate on the flight, then discuss afterwards. The amount of people that think it’s ok to just point at something, while the other person is engaged in a task and expect them to just do it amazes me.
If you need it there and then, then do it yourself and bring the other pilot into the loop as soon as they are free. If you can’t manage that yourself, then wait until the other person is free then ask for the selection, so the safety is still there to check and cross check the correct selection is made.
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In about three decades of airline flying for several airlines, I never worked for one that referred to "co-pilots".
Both pilots were fully rated on the aeroplanes. The Pilot 'in command' was the Captain, the other Pilot was the First Officer.
The Pilot flying that sector was the 'Pilot Flying' (PF), the other Pilot was the 'Pilot not Flying' (PNF). That was later improved to PF and Pilot Monitoring (PM). Yes, if you are that 'twitchy' it might seem to be 'policing', but I never had any problem with that common sense term.
The term "Co-Pilot" does hark back to the very early days of aviation where the 'Pilot' was a 'god' and the 'Co-Pilot' was his lackey. Thank goodness those days are way in the past!
It could be argued that now the PM is the 'Co-Pilot' and the PF is the 'Pilot', meaning that the First Officer could be the 'Pilot' and the Captain could be the 'Co-Pilot'.
Both pilots were fully rated on the aeroplanes. The Pilot 'in command' was the Captain, the other Pilot was the First Officer.
The Pilot flying that sector was the 'Pilot Flying' (PF), the other Pilot was the 'Pilot not Flying' (PNF). That was later improved to PF and Pilot Monitoring (PM). Yes, if you are that 'twitchy' it might seem to be 'policing', but I never had any problem with that common sense term.
The term "Co-Pilot" does hark back to the very early days of aviation where the 'Pilot' was a 'god' and the 'Co-Pilot' was his lackey. Thank goodness those days are way in the past!
It could be argued that now the PM is the 'Co-Pilot' and the PF is the 'Pilot', meaning that the First Officer could be the 'Pilot' and the Captain could be the 'Co-Pilot'.
The term "co-pilot" is written into our regulations (Oz).
CAR 5.166 What does an air transport pilot (aeroplane) licence authorise a person to do?
(1) An air transport pilot (aeroplane) licence authorises the holder of the licence to fly an aeroplane as pilot in command, or co-pilot, while the aeroplane is engaged in any operation.
(1) An air transport pilot (aeroplane) licence authorises the holder of the licence to fly an aeroplane as pilot in command, or co-pilot, while the aeroplane is engaged in any operation.
