CL-415 crash firefighting in Italy, 27/10/22
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Absolutely, let's wait for the investigation report, as there are many variables to consider, and we cannot get the full picture at this point. However the captain troubled past sparked reactions which have been relayed by the press.
Originally Posted by markkal
Absolutely, let's wait for the investigation report, as there are many variables to consider, and we cannot get the full picture at this point. However the captain troubled past sparked reactions which have been relayed by the press.
Quite an interesting video on the Canadair itself, limited significantly (for me) by my total inability to understand the beautiful Italian language - and one other distraction 
. However it was most educational even then, and a fascinating comparison / contrast with our local ops utilising the AT-802.
. However it was most educational even then, and a fascinating comparison / contrast with our local ops utilising the AT-802.
ATSB Report on C-130 Crash
Thanks to FOR for linking to the ATSB report which made good use of ADS-B and recorder data to estimate airspeed loss. But AoA changes were not included.
Frost’s 1983 paper, Flight in Low-Level Wind Shear commissioned by NASA supplies:
Where: q is the pitch (rate?), the elevated dots are differential over time (equivalent to dt), W is wind in the x and z axes, w indicates wind frame, E earth frame.
What appears to many as an accelerated stall from pilot input may well be a result of gusts. ADS-B and recorder data with video analysis may give a better picture of what happened.
Frost’s 1983 paper, Flight in Low-Level Wind Shear commissioned by NASA supplies:
Where: q is the pitch (rate?), the elevated dots are differential over time (equivalent to dt), W is wind in the x and z axes, w indicates wind frame, E earth frame.
What appears to many as an accelerated stall from pilot input may well be a result of gusts. ADS-B and recorder data with video analysis may give a better picture of what happened.
Originally Posted by FullOppositeRudder
Quite an interesting video on the Canadair itself, limited significantly (for me) by my total inability to understand the beautiful Italian language - and one other distraction . However it was most educational even then, and a fascinating comparison / contrast with our local ops utilising the AT-802.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DclvUrMz8TY
. However it was most educational even then, and a fascinating comparison / contrast with our local ops utilising the AT-802.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DclvUrMz8TY
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Great video FullOppositeRudder! Thanks.
Indeed, a SEAT or a helicopter with a bucket would have been more appropriate for a drop in this terrain (not sure if these assets are available in Italy though).
Originally Posted by FullOppositeRudder
comparison / contrast with our local ops utilising the AT-802
Last edited by avionimc; 4th Nov 2022 at 11:54.
Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying
Thanks to FOR for linking to the ATSB report which made good use of ADS-B and recorder data to estimate airspeed loss. But AoA changes were not included.
Frost’s 1983 paper, Flight in Low-Level Wind Shear commissioned by NASA supplies:
Where: q is the pitch (rate?), the elevated dots are differential over time (equivalent to dt), W is wind in the x and z axes, w indicates wind frame, E earth frame.
What appears to many as an accelerated stall from pilot input may well be a result of gusts. ADS-B and recorder data with video analysis may give a better picture of what happened.
Frost’s 1983 paper, Flight in Low-Level Wind Shear commissioned by NASA supplies:
Where: q is the pitch (rate?), the elevated dots are differential over time (equivalent to dt), W is wind in the x and z axes, w indicates wind frame, E earth frame.
What appears to many as an accelerated stall from pilot input may well be a result of gusts. ADS-B and recorder data with video analysis may give a better picture of what happened.
Frost uses the term "q" for pitch rate. Separately, alpha.dot is more or less proportional to pitch rate, "q'. The next step from that formula is to look at the pitch rate derivative, Cmq, and that sets up a fair idea of how much fun the plane will be to fly,
p, q, r are body-axis angular rates, (usually rad/s)
where at is the tailplane lift curve, VsubH is the horizontal tail volume, and the last term is the moment arm from the center of mass and the MAC of the tail. That is a conventional statement, using the center of mass, which is arguably a nice convention but not strictly true, but the values reflect the same outcome.
FWIW, Frost's algorithms are seen in a simplified form in the reactive wind shear algorithm. Back when that came out, the algorithm triggered on loss of performance, while there was credible modelling from Fujita that would give a good basis for having the trigger earlier on the basis of increasing performance from the steady state. IIRC, EGPWS made the change to the algorithm moot. In some cases, it would have given around 10 seconds earlier WS warning, even as a reactive system. There goes the neighbourhood.
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Do they use Air Attack airplanes (also as a Lead Airplane) with a Fire Coordinator (ATGS) in Italy?
https://www.nifc.gov/resources/aircr...tical-aircraft
https://www.nifc.gov/resources/aircr...tical-aircraft
Thankyou Liffy_1M - regarding the youtube translate feature - I had no idea that was on offer. It certainly was of assistance in working out what she was conveying so well but in her own language. As you say, far from a perfect translation but it helped.
I learn something from PPRuNe most days - sometimes even in the non aviation area. Thank you again
I learn something from PPRuNe most days - sometimes even in the non aviation area. Thank you again
