Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

CL-415 crash firefighting in Italy, 27/10/22

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

CL-415 crash firefighting in Italy, 27/10/22

Old 3rd Nov 2022, 10:58
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Down south
Age: 67
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Absolutely, let's wait for the investigation report, as there are many variables to consider, and we cannot get the full picture at this point. However the captain troubled past sparked reactions which have been relayed by the press.
markkal is offline  
Old 3rd Nov 2022, 12:16
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,509
Likes: 0
Received 14 Likes on 14 Posts
Originally Posted by markkal View Post
Absolutely, let's wait for the investigation report, as there are many variables to consider, and we cannot get the full picture at this point. However the captain troubled past sparked reactions which have been relayed by the press.
The press…
Flying Binghi is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2022, 00:30
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Down Under somewhere not all that far from YPAD
Age: 77
Posts: 538
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Quite an interesting video on the Canadair itself, limited significantly (for me) by my total inability to understand the beautiful Italian language - and one other distraction . However it was most educational even then, and a fascinating comparison / contrast with our local ops utilising the AT-802.


FullOppositeRudder is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2022, 04:05
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,448
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
ATSB Report on C-130 Crash

Thanks to FOR for linking to the ATSB report which made good use of ADS-B and recorder data to estimate airspeed loss. But AoA changes were not included.

Frost’s 1983 paper, Flight in Low-Level Wind Shear commissioned by NASA supplies:



Where: q is the pitch (rate?), the elevated dots are differential over time (equivalent to dt), W is wind in the x and z axes, w indicates wind frame, E earth frame.

What appears to many as an accelerated stall from pilot input may well be a result of gusts. ADS-B and recorder data with video analysis may give a better picture of what happened.
RatherBeFlying is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2022, 09:54
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by FullOppositeRudder View Post
Quite an interesting video on the Canadair itself, limited significantly (for me) by my total inability to understand the beautiful Italian language - and one other distraction . However it was most educational even then, and a fascinating comparison / contrast with our local ops utilising the AT-802.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DclvUrMz8TY
If watching on Youtube you can set for subtitles with auto-translation to English which, while not perfect, gives a reasonable idea of what's being said.
Liffy 1M is online now  
Old 4th Nov 2022, 10:48
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SAYE
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Great video FullOppositeRudder! Thanks.
Originally Posted by FullOppositeRudder View Post
comparison / contrast with our local ops utilising the AT-802
Indeed, a SEAT or a helicopter with a bucket would have been more appropriate for a drop in this terrain (not sure if these assets are available in Italy though).

Last edited by avionimc; 4th Nov 2022 at 12:54.
avionimc is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2022, 13:20
  #47 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 1,956
Received 19 Likes on 11 Posts
Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying View Post
Thanks to FOR for linking to the ATSB report which made good use of ADS-B and recorder data to estimate airspeed loss. But AoA changes were not included.

Frost’s 1983 paper, Flight in Low-Level Wind Shear commissioned by NASA supplies:



Where: q is the pitch (rate?), the elevated dots are differential over time (equivalent to dt), W is wind in the x and z axes, w indicates wind frame, E earth frame.

What appears to many as an accelerated stall from pilot input may well be a result of gusts. ADS-B and recorder data with video analysis may give a better picture of what happened.

Frost uses the term "q" for pitch rate. Separately, alpha.dot is more or less proportional to pitch rate, "q'. The next step from that formula is to look at the pitch rate derivative, Cmq, and that sets up a fair idea of how much fun the plane will be to fly,
p, q, r are body-axis angular rates, (usually rad/s)



where at is the tailplane lift curve, VsubH is the horizontal tail volume, and the last term is the moment arm from the center of mass and the MAC of the tail. That is a conventional statement, using the center of mass, which is arguably a nice convention but not strictly true, but the values reflect the same outcome.


FWIW, Frost's algorithms are seen in a simplified form in the reactive wind shear algorithm. Back when that came out, the algorithm triggered on loss of performance, while there was credible modelling from Fujita that would give a good basis for having the trigger earlier on the basis of increasing performance from the steady state. IIRC, EGPWS made the change to the algorithm moot. In some cases, it would have given around 10 seconds earlier WS warning, even as a reactive system. There goes the neighbourhood.



fdr is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2022, 14:14
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SAYE
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Do they use Air Attack airplanes (also as a Lead Airplane) with a Fire Coordinator (ATGS) in Italy?

https://www.nifc.gov/resources/aircr...tical-aircraft
avionimc is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2022, 03:54
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Down Under somewhere not all that far from YPAD
Age: 77
Posts: 538
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Thankyou Liffy_1M - regarding the youtube translate feature - I had no idea that was on offer. It certainly was of assistance in working out what she was conveying so well but in her own language. As you say, far from a perfect translation but it helped.

I learn something from PPRuNe most days - sometimes even in the non aviation area. Thank you again
FullOppositeRudder is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.