Watsonville midair
I'm going to go around, you're coming at me pretty quick, man
https://archive.liveatc.net/kwvi/KWV...2022-2130Z.mp3 @ 24:40
Seems a Cessna twin ran into the back of a 152, both on approach to WVI.
https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco...ville-airport/
Seems a Cessna twin ran into the back of a 152, both on approach to WVI.
https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco...ville-airport/
Good Live ATC find, and interesting listen. You can hear the twin Cessna calling straight in approach several times, beginning 10 miles out. And you can hear what I assume to be the C150, calling out his position several times, including crosswind, downwind, and left base. He even calls that he sees the twin "behind him" when it seems he turns final. Then he calls that the twin is coming faster than he expected, and he is going around. Sure sounds like the C150 turned base and final too soon, thinking he could get in before the twin. Also watched the replay on Flight Radar 24, can see the twin coming in, but do not see the C150 on there at all.
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And you can hear what I assume to be the C150, calling out his position several times, including crosswind, downwind, and left base. He even calls that he sees the twin "behind him" when it seems he turns final.
Is it possible to land a C340 on a 4500 ft runway with a groundspeed of 180 kts at the runway threshold?
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Why the 340 would be doing more than twice its stall speed on short final unless the pilot was in some way not entirely with it...? Or the ADSB reported figures are incorrect.
Only types I've seen crossing the fence at that sort of speed have been Concorde, SR-71, F-104 and maybe a few other military jets...
Only types I've seen crossing the fence at that sort of speed have been Concorde, SR-71, F-104 and maybe a few other military jets...
I have observed a similar accident with two cessnas with one taking off and one going around. In that case the aircraft taking off climbed into the one overshooting.
One scenario is that in this case the 340 realised that he was catching up the 152 and went around. The Cessna also decided to go around and climbed back to circuit height. In such a scenario neither aircraft can easily see the other.
The important point is that if you need to go around with an aircraft climbing out it is important to offset to the right so he doesn’t climb into you.
One scenario is that in this case the 340 realised that he was catching up the 152 and went around. The Cessna also decided to go around and climbed back to circuit height. In such a scenario neither aircraft can easily see the other.
The important point is that if you need to go around with an aircraft climbing out it is important to offset to the right so he doesn’t climb into you.
"The important point is that if you need to go around with an aircraft climbing out it is important to offset to the right so he doesn’t climb into you."
BUT: Both were possibly going around. Both .move to right..
BUT: Both were possibly going around. Both .move to right..
From the limited information available so far, the 152 pilot was a student pilot on an early solo. He was flying a circuit and almost certainly had no idea that the 340 was closing at such speed. The impression I have is that he continued onto finals, to follow his normal taught practice until it became obvious the other aircraft was closing rapidly. The 340 had announced its intention of doing a straight in when it was some distance away - 10 miles out - and appears to have held its speed right up to the accident point, which was just shy of the approach end of the runway.
If those figures are correct the 340 was still well above normal approach speed at impact point- around twice normal, so I'm not sure how its pilot intended to land off such an arrival.
This rather sounds as though the 340 driver completely lost situational awareness and had fixated on his approach path, even forgetting his need to slow down. The inexperienced student pilot did decide to go around, regrettably too late, but just in time to collect the overtaking 340.
Perhaps US rules are different. Straight in approaches put the onus for good clearance on the pilot doing the straight in - he/she needs to be sure the circuit and approach is clear. If in doubt, convert to a normal field arrival on the dead side and enter a circuit. (After all, there may be nonradio traffic around - or failed radio traffic)
Student pilots are on high workload just flying safely at first, so while I'd have hoped to see a low time pilot in this circumstance take positive action earlier, say orbit on base to remain clear of the potential conflict, what he did made sense within his likely awareness. (Who expects an aircraft rushing in at twice normal approach speed ?)
Horrible accident, with some sadly familiar old lessons.
If those figures are correct the 340 was still well above normal approach speed at impact point- around twice normal, so I'm not sure how its pilot intended to land off such an arrival.
This rather sounds as though the 340 driver completely lost situational awareness and had fixated on his approach path, even forgetting his need to slow down. The inexperienced student pilot did decide to go around, regrettably too late, but just in time to collect the overtaking 340.
Perhaps US rules are different. Straight in approaches put the onus for good clearance on the pilot doing the straight in - he/she needs to be sure the circuit and approach is clear. If in doubt, convert to a normal field arrival on the dead side and enter a circuit. (After all, there may be nonradio traffic around - or failed radio traffic)
Student pilots are on high workload just flying safely at first, so while I'd have hoped to see a low time pilot in this circumstance take positive action earlier, say orbit on base to remain clear of the potential conflict, what he did made sense within his likely awareness. (Who expects an aircraft rushing in at twice normal approach speed ?)
Horrible accident, with some sadly familiar old lessons.
From the limited information available so far, the 152 pilot was a student pilot on an early solo. He was flying a circuit and almost certainly had no idea that the 340 was closing at such speed. The impression I have is that he continued onto finals, to follow his normal taught practice until it became obvious the other aircraft was closing rapidly. The 340 had announced its intention of doing a straight in when it was some distance away - 10 miles out - and appears to have held its speed right up to the accident point, which was just shy of the approach end of the runway.
If those figures are correct the 340 was still well above normal approach speed at impact point- around twice normal, so I'm not sure how its pilot intended to land off such an arrival.
This rather sounds as though the 340 driver completely lost situational awareness and had fixated on his approach path, even forgetting his need to slow down. The inexperienced student pilot did decide to go around, regrettably too late, but just in time to collect the overtaking 340.
Perhaps US rules are different. Straight in approaches put the onus for good clearance on the pilot doing the straight in - he/she needs to be sure the circuit and approach is clear. If in doubt, convert to a normal field arrival on the dead side and enter a circuit. (After all, there may be nonradio traffic around - or failed radio traffic)
Student pilots are on high workload just flying safely at first, so while I'd have hoped to see a low time pilot in this circumstance take positive action earlier, say orbit on base to remain clear of the potential conflict, what he did made sense within his likely awareness. (Who expects an aircraft rushing in at twice normal approach speed ?)
Horrible accident, with some sadly familiar old lessons.
If those figures are correct the 340 was still well above normal approach speed at impact point- around twice normal, so I'm not sure how its pilot intended to land off such an arrival.
This rather sounds as though the 340 driver completely lost situational awareness and had fixated on his approach path, even forgetting his need to slow down. The inexperienced student pilot did decide to go around, regrettably too late, but just in time to collect the overtaking 340.
Perhaps US rules are different. Straight in approaches put the onus for good clearance on the pilot doing the straight in - he/she needs to be sure the circuit and approach is clear. If in doubt, convert to a normal field arrival on the dead side and enter a circuit. (After all, there may be nonradio traffic around - or failed radio traffic)
Student pilots are on high workload just flying safely at first, so while I'd have hoped to see a low time pilot in this circumstance take positive action earlier, say orbit on base to remain clear of the potential conflict, what he did made sense within his likely awareness. (Who expects an aircraft rushing in at twice normal approach speed ?)
Horrible accident, with some sadly familiar old lessons.
this…
it’s on the guy not entering in a standard manner.
Straight in approaches put the onus for good clearance on the pilot doing the straight in - he/she needs to be sure the circuit and approach is clear. If in doubt, convert to a normal field arrival on the dead side and enter a circuit.
The 152 N449931 was well within its normal rights. He was also entitled to do a G/A when he considered the aircraft from behind posed a threat. The 340A was observed to be at high speed according to the local rags, but was in all cases the overtaking aircraft, and was required to give way. Being right doesn't give much consolation when you are still timex. The 152 did everything right, he did an avoidance manoeuvre and if the plane behind ran into him... Did the 152 start an offset to the right? It appears that there was little time between the decision to Go around and the impact, so at 152 speeds, he isn't going to be far off the centreline, and he was apparently looking over his shoulder at least for part of the time. At 65-70kt, the 152 isn't going to go far compared with a 179kt 340A running into him.
Thanks India Four Two, of course ! It's a long time since I last flew in the USA, too long evidently. Doing that downwind 45 degree standard join you describe would have allowed the 340 to see the circuit traffic, and them to see him.
It;s hard to see what the 152 pilot could have done safely, other than an orbit on base, which is not normal practice for students as far as I know. Doing a go around from base leg meant crossing the path of a fast moving machine - far from ideal., and would likely have led to the same outcome, without good luck. Not nice.
It;s hard to see what the 152 pilot could have done safely, other than an orbit on base, which is not normal practice for students as far as I know. Doing a go around from base leg meant crossing the path of a fast moving machine - far from ideal., and would likely have led to the same outcome, without good luck. Not nice.
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The RAF used to teach (hopefully still do) a dead side join for light aircraft at training airfields, in order to avoid exactly this situation from occurring. The pilot of a joining aircraft must give way to those already in the circuit and joins parallel to the runway in use, in the circuit direction, but offset to the dead side. The joining pilot only crosses to the live side when safe to do so without getting in the way of others, even if this means flying well upwind.
Orbitting anywhere in the circuit, or extending down wind were both a big “no-no” and would result in a visit to the tower for a dressing down by the duty instructor.
Orbitting anywhere in the circuit, or extending down wind were both a big “no-no” and would result in a visit to the tower for a dressing down by the duty instructor.
I had a bad experience myself (air miss) with a light twin pilot attempting an unauthorized straight in approach to the opposite runway from which I was departing in a 737. So I will admit to potentially being a bit biased about light twins. In this case if the reports are true that the twin was doing 180 knots inside 3 miles then there is no excuse for such poor airmanship. As has been pointed out by others it is hard to know what the 152 pilot could have done differently if this is true.
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in USA rules are definite different. A similar accident happened at HQZ a few years ago, father and son in a 150 doing a base to final turn when the big twin came behind doing a "straight in " approach to final that he called 15 miles out. Believe it or not the NTSB gave the right of way to the pilot calling for a straight in approach all 3 died in the accident. In 45 years of flying here i have seen the straight in approach being abused. No one respects the correct entry which is to listen for traffic or see traffic in the pattern. Almost impossible to do on a 15 mile final. Assuming no control tower is present no excuses, NORDO airplanes cannot transmit traffic so the onus should be on the pilot doing the straight in and see or hear traffic then if so give right of way. Almost all straight in approaches fail to correct that issue. Insanity at the best.
Last edited by magyarflyer; 21st Aug 2022 at 17:49. Reason: completion more info
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Was the C340 overtaking the C152 or did the C152 cut in front of the C340 on final... depending on how you see it one or the other was right, the other was wrong. Doesn't matter now when the collision is a fact. Some active coordination, instead of just position reports, would have been appropriate. Especially if you're intending to approach a GA field at 180 kts. Personally I think the C340 approach was madness...
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Referring only to what has been posted here, and with reference to the Canadian rules; The overtaking airplane must give way, and move to the right to accomplish this. The airplane which is lower on the approach has the right of way. And, the airplane approaching the airport must give way to the airplane which is landing (established in the circuit/has turned final).
While training a pilot in his new 182 amphibian years ago, we were flying established circuits, and I was making all the calls, at the airport. This airport was monitored, with a mandatory frequency, by a flight service station at another airport ('could hear but not see traffic). On the downwind to base turn, I started hearing radio calls for straight in approaches to the airport from four 172s (All from a flying school I knew). What was happening was that an instructor dual cross country flight was "leading" three other solo cross country flights to a mid trip stop and go at the airport. I was losing track of which was where, and none were appearing to consider a circuit, nor acknowledging that we were established in the circuit already. I remember writing down registrations on the palm of my hand to try to keep track, but I was not sure who was where. I saw two of the 172's, but couldn't figure where the other two were relative to the ones I could see. I decided to give up, and climb out of the base leg, to let them all go under me. At about the same time, a Learjet was inbound IFR, and on the frequency. As I climbed out of the base leg, I called that "I could not safely land at the airport at this time, and was climbing to exit the circuit vertically on the dead side. I don't think any of the 172 pilots cared, but the Lear pilot sure took notice of what I said.
We went and did some water training for an hour, and by then, everything was calm at the airport. We landed, and I phoned FSS. I asked that the tapes be held, and that the FSS Specialist have a listen right around when I said "I could not land safely...". I called the flight school, and asked for a review of circuit entry procedures among their instructors. Turns out, the daughter of a friend of mine was one of the solo students, and had more or less told her dad what had happened on that flight. When I described my flight, he joined the dots. He was very disappointed that not only was his daughter being "lead" on a solo cross country, but also being lured into really poor circuit entry procedures! I do fly straight in approaches to this airport, but I always establish with FSS that there is no other aircraft in the airport vicinity when I do. Otherwise, I join and fly a correct circuit.
I opine that the C340 pilot "missed" the position calls from the 152 pilot. If the speeds suggested were correct, he probably had the nose coming up to slow it down, and lost the 152 under the nose - if he ever saw it!
While training a pilot in his new 182 amphibian years ago, we were flying established circuits, and I was making all the calls, at the airport. This airport was monitored, with a mandatory frequency, by a flight service station at another airport ('could hear but not see traffic). On the downwind to base turn, I started hearing radio calls for straight in approaches to the airport from four 172s (All from a flying school I knew). What was happening was that an instructor dual cross country flight was "leading" three other solo cross country flights to a mid trip stop and go at the airport. I was losing track of which was where, and none were appearing to consider a circuit, nor acknowledging that we were established in the circuit already. I remember writing down registrations on the palm of my hand to try to keep track, but I was not sure who was where. I saw two of the 172's, but couldn't figure where the other two were relative to the ones I could see. I decided to give up, and climb out of the base leg, to let them all go under me. At about the same time, a Learjet was inbound IFR, and on the frequency. As I climbed out of the base leg, I called that "I could not safely land at the airport at this time, and was climbing to exit the circuit vertically on the dead side. I don't think any of the 172 pilots cared, but the Lear pilot sure took notice of what I said.
We went and did some water training for an hour, and by then, everything was calm at the airport. We landed, and I phoned FSS. I asked that the tapes be held, and that the FSS Specialist have a listen right around when I said "I could not land safely...". I called the flight school, and asked for a review of circuit entry procedures among their instructors. Turns out, the daughter of a friend of mine was one of the solo students, and had more or less told her dad what had happened on that flight. When I described my flight, he joined the dots. He was very disappointed that not only was his daughter being "lead" on a solo cross country, but also being lured into really poor circuit entry procedures! I do fly straight in approaches to this airport, but I always establish with FSS that there is no other aircraft in the airport vicinity when I do. Otherwise, I join and fly a correct circuit.
I opine that the C340 pilot "missed" the position calls from the 152 pilot. If the speeds suggested were correct, he probably had the nose coming up to slow it down, and lost the 152 under the nose - if he ever saw it!
The 152 N449931 was well within its normal rights. He was also entitled to do a G/A when he considered the aircraft from behind posed a threat. The 340A was observed to be at high speed according to the local rags, but was in all cases the overtaking aircraft, and was required to give way. Being right doesn't give much consolation when you are still timex. The 152 did everything right, he did an avoidance manoeuvre and if the plane behind ran into him... Did the 152 start an offset to the right? It appears that there was little time between the decision to Go around and the impact, so at 152 speeds, he isn't going to be far off the centreline, and he was apparently looking over his shoulder at least for part of the time. At 65-70kt, the 152 isn't going to go far compared with a 179kt 340A running into him.
What I do note is the calls of the C152 pilot - downwind, base but no call on final? Maybe this would have alerted the twin pilot as he was still looking for traffic on base....