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Unreported light aircraft accident

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Unreported light aircraft accident

Old 4th May 2023, 21:29
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo
I'm a bit baffled by all this discussion. PPL requires 5 hours of instrument flying, does it not? So how can a PPL be unable to use his instruments?
...
There is a reason for stringent currency requirements on IFR pilots. Medical background is called somatographic illusions. Just because I had some hours under the hood many years ago does not enable me to hand fly hardcore IFR approaches. No chance. Without horizon view average VFR pilot looses spatial orientation in 60 s.

Last edited by spornrad; 5th May 2023 at 07:40.
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Old 5th May 2023, 11:49
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Originally Posted by Liffy 1M
The report states inter alia:

"Both Birmingham Airport and Gloucestershire Airport were within 90-minutes flying time of the aircraft’s position during the emergency. Both reported 1-2 octas of cloud and good visibility; conditions that were suitable for flying a visual approach."

In this case there was no need for risky ad hoc procedures had the aircraft been assisted to reach an airfield where the weather was good.
That is what I said on my first comment on this thread….

Unreported light aircraft accident

But several people appeared to not read and understand it thoroughly and started a chain of responses irrelevant to what I stated(it does seem to be a trait worth being aware of that there can be a tendency to over-react prior to getting the full amount of easily available information).

Ask ATC for weather reports and if within range and doable in vmc, get vectors toward one of those airports for a vmc letdown. It could even be an off-airport landing if necessary.

Last edited by punkalouver; 7th May 2023 at 16:38.
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Old 6th May 2023, 14:07
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There is always this method of course. Well tried and tested, fool proof and never failed. Only in it, for a matter of seconds.
Maybe we could talk Megan into doing the prune test.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/127374...?s=yWDuG2&fs=e

Last edited by RichardJones; 6th May 2023 at 16:42.
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Old 7th May 2023, 02:40
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Have done that as well RJ, don't know what point you are trying to make.

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Old 7th May 2023, 02:56
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
There is always this method of course. Well tried and tested, fool proof and never failed. Only in it, for a matter of seconds.
Maybe we could talk Megan into doing the prune test.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/127374...?s=yWDuG2&fs=e
33 years in aviation, 20K hours. You are wrong. Maybe in some aircraft it would work. But you stating as fact that it will always work is incorrect. And even suggesting that knowing this will save people shows you don't understand people. If they think they can always get away with following your advise as opposed to staying out of situations they should not be in, more people will end up in the situation above and more will end up dead. Stop spreading this. If it would really worked, it would be trained by every instructor. You sound like the "get rich working online in 2 hours per day secret investment tool" people.
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Old 7th May 2023, 03:07
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Originally Posted by punkalouver
Choose your risk.

Most pilots with a CAP 10 know how to do a spin very well. They usually didn’t buy it for gaining any instrument experience. Got some news for you. Active input for a spin(called holding it on the stops) ain’t that difficult.

One should keep in mind is that there are plenty of very good aerobatic pilots with no instrument experience who have done thousands of spins and can actually keep the greasy side up better than you ever could(when appropriate).

So yeah, it is quite possible with some pilots. Just do another spin like you did a hundred time previous in your CAP 10 and recover just like you did a hundred times previously.

Hmmmm. 421Dog is USA based. Scared of spins are we, after never having been trained how to do one?

OMG OMG
And 99% of the GA public have no business getting close to a spin. They are more likely to survive inadvertent flight into IMC by trying to keep the wings level than to spin through it. Full stop. Saying anything else is just wrong. Yeah, aerobatic pilots could probably, but that is not a large group, and you even suggesting it should be tried by the regular flying public is just wrong. Plenty of experience in aviation, never done a spin. The reason the US stopped teaching spins to private pilots was that too many people died getting instruction in how to do them.....
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Old 7th May 2023, 03:54
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Originally Posted by hans brinker
And 99% of the GA public have no business getting close to a spin. They are more likely to survive inadvertent flight into IMC by trying to keep the wings level than to spin through it. Full stop. Saying anything else is just wrong. Yeah, aerobatic pilots could probably, but that is not a large group, and you even suggesting it should be tried by the regular flying public is just wrong. Plenty of experience in aviation, never done a spin. The reason the US stopped teaching spins to private pilots was that too many people died getting instruction in how to do them.....

Did I mention in my last post that there is a tendency for people to not read things fully and then respond erroneously? I think I did.

Thanks for your analysis that one is more likely to survive an IMC encounter than spin through it...."Full Stop". Show us the data. There is none.

As I stated earlier for those not fully reading my posts......"My recommendation just one more idea to have in mind that could work in certain rare cases." This fellow did not encounter that rare case because it was cloudy right to the ground.

But his likelihood of surviving the attempt at extended IMC flight for an approach in low IFR conditions was quite low, as it is with a large percentage of VFR pilots that would try such a thing. He didn't even get anywhere close to the low level maneuvering stage for his vectors for the approach. It would appear that some people here seem to think that he had a good chance of survival trying that. I doubt it and would suggest that a large percentage of the GA public have no business getting close to an intentional IMC letdown to a low IFR landing.

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Old 7th May 2023, 04:35
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Originally Posted by punkalouver
Did I mention in my last post that there is a tendency for people to not read things fully and then respond erroneously? I think I did.

Thanks for your analysis that one is more likely to survive an IMC encounter than spin through it...."Full Stop". Show us the data. There is none.

As I stated earlier for those not fully reading my posts......"My recommendation just one more idea to have in mind that could work in certain rare cases." This fellow did not encounter that rare case because it was cloudy right to the ground.

But his likelihood of surviving the attempt at extended IMC flight for an approach in low IFR conditions was quite low, as it is with a large percentage of VFR pilots that would try such a thing. He didn't even get anywhere close to the low level maneuvering stage for his vectors for the approach. It would appear that some people here seem to think that he had a good chance of survival trying that. I doubt it and would suggest that a large percentage of the GA public have no business getting close to an intentional IMC letdown to a low IFR landing.
This was your post:

Originally Posted by punkalouver
This seems like a situation that could been fairly easy to resolve, depending on the cloud at his high altitude when he called ATC. We know he reported being on top of cloud but cannot be sure if it was a large swath of good VFR on top conditions or not(it would have been nice for the air to get a pirep from the nearby military jet).

The pilot had decent flight experience at over 1000 hours. He also had options with 1.5 hours fuel stated to ATC(and depending on what power setting he based it on, could have been extended). All that need to have been done was to ask ATC about weather reports at nearby airports. There were airports within 1.5 hours that had very nice weather. A request for vectors would get him to a safe airport.

Even if an unavoidable cloud layer was encountered, I would suggest that it would likely be safer to penetrate IMC in cruise flight rather than what likely turned out to be a descent at a speed closer to the redline.

And even if he ended up out of non-IMC options with low fuel over an airport with an overcast layer combined with a cloud base that was not too low, he could have put his aerobatic plane in a spin and held it there until clear of the clouds, then recovered.
I agree with everything except the last sentence. And there is not much that could change my mind about that.

Originally Posted by punkalouver
Choose your risk.

Most pilots with a CAP 10 know how to do a spin very well. They usually didnít buy it for gaining any instrument experience. Got some news for you. Active input for a spin(called holding it on the stops) ainít that difficult.

One should keep in mind is that there are plenty of very good aerobatic pilots with no instrument experience who have done thousands of spins and can actually keep the greasy side up better than you ever could(when appropriate).

So yeah, it is quite possible with some pilots. Just do another spin like you did a hundred time previous in your CAP 10 and recover just like you did a hundred times previously.

Hmmmm. 421Dog is USA based. Scared of spins are we, after never having been trained how to do one?

OMG OMG
Show me the data that most cap10 pilots know how to spin.
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Old 7th May 2023, 05:38
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You are wrong. Maybe in some aircraft it would work. But you stating as fact that it will always work is incorrect
hans, what really concerns me is here we have a guy claiming "20k hours TT, made up of instructing, ag flying. Bush flying, airline. A lot of types. including heavy 4 engine jets, B747" you would think he would have a firm grip on aerodynamics, seemingly not so. Advice to all, don't take this RichardJones crackpot idea of descending through cloud on board.

Still laughing at the mere thought.

I challenge Richard to provide a list of types he has tried this in, coupled with video of same. That's the only way he can back up his claim.
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Old 7th May 2023, 13:42
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Returning to the original subject of this thread, the fatal crash of G-BXBU, a Mudry Cap 10B, I was shocked to read the Accident Report.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...BXBU_06-23.pdf

The Air Traffic Controllers gave the poor pilot no help at all. In fact they made things worse for him, by diverting him to Exeter airport, where weather conditions were completely unsuitable for a VFR landing. This was what the pilot needed, as he was licensed only for single-engine VFR flying, and was stuck above thick clouds at 7500 feet.

The diversion was agreed between two "assistants" at Exeter Airport and the Distress & Diversion Cell at Swanick, without a real Controller ever being involved. The pilot had called PAN PAN twice, and was heard by both Control centers, and set his beacon to Squawk 7700. It is confirmed in the Report that any one of these actions should have caused ATC to treat his situation as an Emergency. But the Exeter controller repeatedly referred to G-BXBU as a "weather diversion", then offered an ILS approach !! The controller seemed more concerned that G-BXBU should not conflict with a military jet that was circling, but in no distress at all.

No controller ever asked the pilot exactly what his problem was, or established that he had 90 mins of fuel left, so he could divert to several open airports.

Finally, the Exeter controller instructed G-BXBU to descend to 2600 feet, which was in thick cloud. The pilot queried this, and the instruction was repeated. The crash followed shortly thereafter. However, it is not possible to say that the instruction caused the crash, as there is some evidence that the pilot had already started to divert to another small airstrip, that was his home base.

Look, it must be said that this pilot was performing very poorly under extreme pressure (from his assessment) and he might very well have crashed anyway. Amongst other things, he had been flying with his beacon Off, and had already made several lurid abrupt 360 degree turns, and rapid descents. And he did not communicate very clearly with ATC. He was clearly panicking. But with even average support from ATC, he might have survived, with his passenger.

The seven Safety Recommendations in the report all relate to ATC in one form or another. There are none for pilots.

I imagine that all pilots would expect that ATC could respond correctly to a call of PAN PAN, and a beacon setting of 7700. Surely ATC must have some statutory responsibilities?

Altogether a very disappointing incident.

IB



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Old 7th May 2023, 16:19
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Originally Posted by hans brinker
This was your post:

I agree with everything except the last sentence. And there is not much that could change my mind about that.
.
It is not your mind that I am trying to change.

I have now publicized a rare but possible exit scenario for someone caught above a layer of clouds that can be kept in mind by people who have read it and passed it along in further discussions. Like I said previously, there are a lot of variables that have to come together including cloud base, aircraft type, remaining fuel, nearby weather, aircraft instrument installation, instrument serviceability, instrument flying experience(or lack of), aerobatic experience, etc to go into the decision-making process. I have anecdotal evidence of it being used successfully at least once.

Whether you agree with it is meaningless to me. And I am sure that it will be completely meaningless the erroneous pilot stuck above the clouds in an aircraft without the capability for instrument flight.

I could just see the theoretical frantic phone call now from a guy in a Piper Cub stuck above the clouds with little fuel left desperately looking for ideas from a high time guy after making the biggest mistake of his life. He gets admonished to make sure to never do it again and then the phone hangs up with the pilot having learned his lesson.

What are you going to tell this guy to save his life?
Cold War Gallery Cockpits (nmusafvirtualtour.com)

Last edited by punkalouver; 7th May 2023 at 16:45.
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Old 7th May 2023, 19:39
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I'm just a PPL with a long-expired UK IMC rating. I got into cloud before getting the IMC, but did a 180 and got out without losing control.
I have done spinning. Aircraft do not stop descending after spin stops. Nobody has mentioned the risk of pulling high G getting out of the post-spin dive after exiting the cloud and seeing the ground. There is great variation in the height lost in a spin. After spinning initially in Chipmunks I was startled at the height my instructor chose to enter a spin in a Tiger Moth.
The parachute video is only relevant if you are wearing a parachute and are current in its use - I've never jumped and would prefer to try to descend on instruments.
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Old 7th May 2023, 21:20
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Originally Posted by Maoraigh1
I'm just a PPL with a long-expired UK IMC rating. I got into cloud before getting the IMC, but did a 180 and got out without losing control.
I have done spinning. Aircraft do not stop descending after spin stops. Nobody has mentioned the risk of pulling high G getting out of the post-spin dive after exiting the cloud and seeing the ground. There is great variation in the height lost in a spin. After spinning initially in Chipmunks I was startled at the height my instructor chose to enter a spin in a Tiger Moth.
The parachute video is only relevant if you are wearing a parachute and are current in its use - I've never jumped and would prefer to try to descend on instruments.
That is your decision. But at least you were able to consider an alternative option, even if you decided it didnít make sense for you.

The standard spin risks apply if one chooses to do a spin. As you mentioned, there may be increased risk during recovery due to visual cues. That is why I have mentioned that it is risky, as is the IMC flight option, depending on previous experience and aircraft instrumentation.

Mind you, it could be interesting for a low timer to do an instrument approach in your Tiger Moth with a cockpit like thisÖ.

www.welovestornoway.com/index.php/articles-auto-3/25264-vintage-visitor-for-stornoway




Last edited by punkalouver; 7th May 2023 at 21:50.
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Old 8th May 2023, 21:35
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I tried the " feet off pedals etc" today in the Bolkow Junior. It worked perfectly in calm air. No tendency to change. I'll try it in turbulence when that's available. Not something I could get the Jodel to do.
Still think holding an aircraft in a spin is dangerous if aircraft was not flown with this intention. C of G will affect characteristics. Spin might flatten.
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Old 9th May 2023, 12:42
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
Ok.
You have one chance and one chance only. Use the inherent stability of the Aircraft.
- Carb Heat on, throttle back to approx 1500 RPM
- Trim for approx 70 A/S. Depending on type of course.
- FEET OFF THE RUDDERS!! and leave them off!
- Ailerons central and keep them central.wheel or stick central.

Only instrument needed is ASI
Try it for yourself. Sure the aircraft will wallow around etc. but will get you down.
DID I SAY FEET OFF THE RUDDERS?
Wonít work with a Tiger Moth; as soon as you take your feet off the pedals, it will try to sniff its own backside! The only time a Tiger is stable is in a spin - which will get you down through cloud as long as you have enough cloudbase for the subsequent recovery. Only to be used in extremis!!

Mog
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Old 10th May 2023, 03:12
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The only time a Tiger is stable is in a spin - which will get you down through cloud as long as you have enough cloudbase for the subsequent recovery. Only to be used in extremis!!
There is a famous photo of a Tiger in a vertical dive about six feet off the ground, can't find the photo at the moment, seem to recall it was the result of a spin, pilot survived virtually unscathed I seem to recall. Perhaps the Tiger is the same as a test pilot jokingly said of a Cub, it can barely kill you. Loved the Tiger spin Mogwi, and the Chipmunk, save for the clattering and banging of the canopy.
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Old 10th May 2023, 04:25
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Originally Posted by megan
There is a famous photo of a Tiger in a vertical dive about six feet off the ground, can't find the photo at the moment...
G-ANMZ, 13th July 1963, thanks to https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/234483, and here 'tis:





Some years later it would seem a similar event occurred at the same airfield! This time courtesy Northamptonshire Telegraph:




Last edited by First_Principal; 10th May 2023 at 04:43. Reason: Correct earlier date of accident, and add later accident photo/detail
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Old 10th May 2023, 04:50
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..Spin to get out of clouds ??..What could possibly go wrong there..

..Over 3 decades of flying (anything in between ultralights and widebodies), and am still learning new procedures..!!

Fly safe,
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Old 10th May 2023, 05:14
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757, is one to assume then that the emergency hands and feet off descent through cloud is well known to you, or one you have yet to learn?
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Old 10th May 2023, 09:52
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Originally Posted by megan
757, is one to assume then that the emergency hands and feet off descent through cloud is well known to you, or one you have yet to learn?
Assume? Makes an ASS of yoU and ME.

Reading some of your posts on this thread, I have failed to see any constructive input, whatsoever.
Maybe you are able to rectify this somewhat.
What advice would YOU pass onto a pilot who is caught out, on top of cloud, with one option only, to decend through it? No A/H, no turn and slip? Fair question I believe.

Last edited by RichardJones; 10th May 2023 at 10:54.
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