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C 172 in Toronto the other day...

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C 172 in Toronto the other day...

Old 3rd Sep 2020, 17:00
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C 172 in Toronto the other day...

Well, when I was shown the security camera video of this accident in confidence the other day, I could not believe what I was seeing. Now there's a cockpit video on Youtube, so, I guess it's "out there" now, here you are.... I regularly fly out to this airport, and was parked in front of the victim hangar last week. The pilot was obviously a little airborne crossing the grass, as the are two ditches in there, either of which would probably stop a 172 on its wheels. But, the hangar stopped it! In have not heard of the condition of the pilot, so I'm hopeful he was not seriously injured.

This distance he traveled once leaving the runway was about 150 meters, about 50 degrees off the runway heading.

I just don't know what to say about this...

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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 17:31
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Minor injuries apparently...

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/240606
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 18:34
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That pilot was lucky to have escaped with only minor injuries, because the impact with the hangar appeared to be pretty severe. It also looked like he throttled up to help recover from a potential runway excursion, but never pulled the throttle back to idle.

Regards,
Grog

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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 19:21
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Steering a car, with his hands, rather than use the rudder.
1st Solo too soon? Weather/wake turbulence at the wrong moment?
Lots to choose from, before the official report.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 07:20
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... it really looks like he thought he could fly his way out of the situation, even though he was bashing his way through the grass!!

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Old 4th Sep 2020, 09:35
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What the heck did I just see?
What is that full (or more) right aileron input from 0:17? Replacement for the missing left rudder input?
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 09:48
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rnzoli I think the pilot reverted to "car driver" mode in a complete panic and tried to steer the aircraft to the right as said above in post #4
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 12:08
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Originally Posted by Antsl
... it really looks like he thought he could fly his way out of the situation, even though he was bashing his way through the grass!!
Yeah, just as he veers left, looks like he jams the throttle full forward, as if to do a go-around? then leaves it firewalled through the crash. Yikes!
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 12:10
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What a sad way to lose an aircraft. It does look like reversion to car driving mode - one snag of having a yoke instead of a stick. When I (briefly) flew Cessnas during conversion training to power from sailplanes we were told to use only one hand on the yoke, possibly for that reason. ( I found doing a roll in a Cessna Aerobat very strange, using the yoke! )
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 15:04
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Still canít understand what happened here ?
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Old 5th Sep 2020, 14:42
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Wheelbarrowing after a much too fast, forced touchdown, contributing to the aircraft veering left? ThereĎs no flare visible and it almost appears that it was three-pointed.

I never considered myself an ace pilot (I never came off the runway or bent anything though). However, I did accumulate around 200 hrs on C172, and I always found it tricky to land well when lightly loaded and following the instructions of some instructors who would have you fly finals at 70-75 kts with full flaps. I later on flew one from a narrow 400 m with no problems; 65 kts on finals reducing to 60 over the hedge was perfectly safe and worked every time
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Old 6th Sep 2020, 08:56
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Another photo here and another incident at the same airport it seems.

https://www.onthewingsaviation.com/2...contra-un.html
Google translated below - reads quite well.



On August 24, a Canadian Flyers International student pilot was taking off and taking off on runway 33 at Buttonville Municipal Airport, north of Toronto, Canada.


After several circuits, the pilot landed on runway 33 and the aircraft veered to the left. At that time, the pilot and sole occupant of the aircraft, applied the maximum power for takeoff. However, the plane did not rise and ended up veering to the right. After crossing a grassy area and a taxiway, the plane ended up hitting the side of an airport hangar head-on.
The plane, a Cessna 172M Skyhawk with registration C-GJQB, has been destroyed and the hangar has suffered considerable damage. The pilot was taken to a nearby hospital for a medical evaluation and luckily has only suffered minor injuries.

It was not the only accident:

Just 6 days later, another Cessna 172M Skyhawk aircraft from the same school and with registration C-GWYC, has suffered an accident at the same airport.

On this occasion, a student pilot and his instructor were taking off from runway 33 for an instruction flight. Immediately after takeoff, the engine began to lose power, so the instructor took control of the plane. He applied full power but the aircraft was still unresponsive, so the instructor attempted an emergency landing on runway 15 with a tight 180 degree turn.


However, due to the low altitude the aircraft was carrying, it could not reach the runway and hit a mound adjacent to 16th Avenue. Both occupants of the aircraft were able to escape with only minor injuries.

TSB is investigating both accidents.
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Old 6th Sep 2020, 09:37
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Originally Posted by The Fat Controller
rnzoli I think the pilot reverted to "car driver" mode in a complete panic and tried to steer the aircraft to the right as said above in post #4
Exactly my thinking...
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Old 6th Sep 2020, 09:53
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I wonder if his instructor perhaps over did the message 'if in doubt go around'.

But how did he imagine he was going to fly it out while trundling across the grass straight for a hangar? He wasn't even looking out of the window. Or did he think he had closed the throttle by pushing it in?
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Old 6th Sep 2020, 11:12
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That airport (Toronto Buttonville, CYKZ) has been affected by city building up around it. When I first started to fly there in the late '70's, it was fields all around. Now, it's all built up for miles in every direction. Aside from some awkward clear spaces around nearby expressways, there are no suitable off airport landing sites nearby. So, though I don't endorse a turnback EFATO, I can see why the instructor in the other situation would try (and not succeed). I'd been there with my plane a few days before the student hit the hangar (parking about 100 feet from where he hit), and reminded myself to fly a high, tight circuit, just in case. So there is some mental pressure operating from this airport, resulting in faster finals, awareness of noise sensitive areas, and nowhere to go in the case of an EFATO. Pilots tend to fly faster approaches as there are several commercial buildings under short final. At least one of those roofs has been a crash site.

This airport has been slated for closure for a decade or so. The long time owners, Mr. and Mrs. Sifton were aviation lovers, and operated the airport more out of passion than profit. Mr. Sifton passed on years ago, and Mrs. Sifton has retired. Their son took it all over, and made the effort, but the incredible value of property, now in the center of prime development area, made the airport less attractive, and the income more so. We were told that the airport would close many years ago, and the big operators all moved to other airports. There are legal battles about how the property could be used for development, so multi hundred million dollar sales have been stalled. It's location is so attractive for east Toronto residents, that as it never completely closed, local owners continued to use it. The oldest maintenance shop, there since the '50's, still operates. So this flying school moved there from another local airport which has actually closed. Their luck has been poor recently.

But, none of those factors are an excuse for the student leaving the runway to the right, and not getting the plane stopped before he hit the hangar, there's lots of room around the runways to get a 172 stopped without hitting something. This accident was the result of pilot (and instructor) error, rather than environment.
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Old 6th Sep 2020, 14:27
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How long is the runway?
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Old 6th Sep 2020, 15:13
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3897 x 100 (feet)
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Old 6th Sep 2020, 15:45
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Good grief...
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Old 6th Sep 2020, 17:47
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......x 100 (feet)
Is the problem, width - too much of it!

I'm learning that a part of my success in learning to control an airplane laterally comes in large part from what you get use to. The runway where I used to keep my 150 was 30 feet wide at the narrow area (after we widened it). When I built my own runway, I went wider - 40 feet between the runway lights, and a bit of clearway beyond that. For the 150, it was lots. When I landed a Twin Otter here a few times, it seemed less. The flying boat I've also owned for a dozen years has about 7 feet from either wing tip float to the runway light, if nicely centered on the runway. So there's lots of incentive to keep the plane lined up on the centerline. And, there's lots of visual cues if you get off the centerline. I usually see that my wheel marks in the grass are laterally within 3 feet one side to the other after a number of takeoffs and landings, so I'm happy with that.

The runway at which I have done the most training of other pilots was actually narrowed fro 150 feet wide (ex military) to 100 feet wide, when it was repaved years back. And the grass crosswind runway (former WW2 training base for Norwegian pilots) is more than 200 feet wide. These immense areas seem to lure pilots into thinking that directional control is not that important. They can wander laterally across the runway, and they're still on pavement. Yeah, they're still on pavement, but they're not as much in control! I opine that narrow runways are better suited to teaching runway centerline discipline!

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Old 6th Sep 2020, 18:50
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When Courtenay Airpark was gravel a 700 hour pilot did a similar centerline excursion . He ended up upside down with his family in the sewage lagoon .
C-FLAY . Brain farts happen but that was full on diarrhea .
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