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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 26th Feb 2019, 12:24
  #1481 (permalink)  
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Nor does it help the CAA to know the facts
Come on Pitts, both the legality of the flight and the cause of the accident are important. I am pretty sure Sala’s family want to know the extent to which the regulations were broken. I do not see establishing that as a waste of money; it is surely the duty of the regulator to establish the facts so the Sala family can seek justice.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 13:21
  #1482 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
I have been saying for years that the laws requiring licences and log books to be carried on board the aircraft are bonkers, precisely because this means they're likely to be unavailable when they'd be of most interest.
Agreed completely!
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 13:55
  #1483 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Winniebago View Post
BD was, but may not have still been at the time, associated with the penultimate aircraft Sala flew in down to Nantes, the Eclipse 500 on the 'N' register - not on an AOC
According to the Bulletin Sala was flown to Nantes in the accident aircraft by Ibbotson.

As for cost sharing, the bulletin simply points out that is the only way this flight could have been legal. As the AAIB don’t apportion blame it is for the reader to join up the dots.

The pilot spent the weekend in Nantes. Unless he hob-nobbed with Sala and his mates all weekend there is no ‘common purpose’. As Henderson’s credit card seems to have been used to cover all costs, it would take quite a stretch of the imagination to find any cost sharing.

Getting to the truth of who paid what to whom will be difficult and probably outside the AAIB’s remit, but by pointing out that the flight was illegal they may spur the CAA and police to take it further.

Greater enforcement might discourage this kind of operation, but the good will remain good and the bad will mostly stay bad.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 14:26
  #1484 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford View Post
Agreed completely!
I've never carried my personal log book on any aircraft, in forty years of flying for a living.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 15:05
  #1485 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
So you were unbelievably lucky to never have a ramp check and carrying passengers, never had to show the 90 day rule on a check?
That's a new one on me - if that's the case, could someone kindly tell me where the requirement to carry your log book is written down? Flew airline GA and Airlines for 40 years - only saw a couple of guys carry them (just to immediately fill them in rather than do it at home)

I thought that the following applied : (ANO 235) During the period of two years beginning with the date of the last entry in it every person required by article 228 to keep a personal flying log must cause it to be produced to an authorised person within a reasonable time after being requested to do so by that person.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 15:08
  #1486 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
So you were unbelievably lucky to never have a ramp check and carrying passengers, never had to show the 90 day rule on a check?
It is not actually a requirement to carry a logbook, or even to keep one. The requirement is to keep a record of the flight, which could be an entry in a diary. The record only has to have a small amount of information, nothing like the number of columns that are in most log books.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 15:16
  #1487 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Eutychus View Post

So I keep wondering whether, as it appears to me, such grey charters are widespread practice in the CI, but each time I ask anybody on this thread who seems to be based there, I'm met with deafening silence. Would you care to offer a view?

I agree with you. It's the same as EASA also introducing genuine common purpose for cost sharing. I've said so twice here, without a response.

We're all quick at pointing fingers when things go wrong but we seem reluctant to tighten up the rules which make grey commercial flying possible, maybe all of us have a friend who sometimes gets to fly a jockey, a football player or a star....
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 15:31
  #1488 (permalink)  
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 15:49
  #1489 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by positiverate20 View Post
The root cause was that the driver was not qualified to undertake that journey.
A small but crucial point (l used to teach this stuff). A root cause analysis should always, where possible, have at each step someone doing something and then ask why. Otherwise we’ll stop too soon, or go off down the wrong track. So the statement should be

”a contributing factor was that the driver undertook that journey when he was not qualified to do so”

Then we get an obvious “WHY?” to ask. Maybe he thought he could get away with it. Why? Maybe he was under pressure. WHY? Maybe he was doing a favour for someone. WHY? Maybe he was unaware of the risks. WHY?

... and so on. You see my point. It opens up the causal tree, rather than closing it down. We then get more questions. Usually it will start with the kit and its operations and slowly focus in on organizational and human factors.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 17:17
  #1490 (permalink)  
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What about life insurance?

These illegal charters are hard to detect and stop, so should there be an education campaign by CAA and perhaps the insurance companies? From reading Wingly posts it appears that most people think this is a brilliant facility and have no idea of the financial risk they are running as well as obvious risks from pilot incompetence such as the sad example being discussed.

When I began flying 55 years ago I had a mortgage secured against an endowment insurance policy which would pay off the mortgage on maturity. That policy excluded any form of flying except as a passenger on a commercial flight by a multi-engined aircraft. Sun Life refused to vary this so I had to arrange a new policy at considerable expense, with a 10% premium loading to cover my PPL activities. A similar loading was imposed 20 years later when my business partner and I took out a policy to cover the death of each other.

Today one of the big insurance companies imposes a £12 per month per £100,000 cover loading on PPLs' life insurance policies. It follows that this company recognises the greater risks involved. I would like to know if other companies also restrict their life cover to commercial flights. Since most if not all mortgage companies insist on their customers having life insurance to clear the mortgage in the event of their deaths, maybe people should be aware of the financial consequences if they are aboard the next 'cost-sharing' charter that goes down?
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 17:26
  #1491 (permalink)  
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I don't know what answers those querying CI flights are expecting. A rash of "yes I do it but have got away with it up to now" answers? Never going to happen.

M9 (flew completely legally to Jersey with two pax on cost share basis last weekend)
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 18:28
  #1492 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Pittsextra View Post
That seems entirely sensible. You believe it isn't because you have the benefit of hindsight now but on the face of it what is to be worried about? Pilots around the world would simply take on face value that an experienced pilot filing a VFR flight was capable of making the weather decision.
If I had been invited to take a passenger seat on that journey, I would have asked why was it planned as a low altitude night VFR flight plan over open sea rather than than a high altitude IFR flight plan.
I would quite probably have requested to see the TAF and METAR for destination and for Jersey and I would probably have declined the offer.
Because the plan was unnecessarily accumulating several risk factors.
After reading the TAF, I would probably have asked what about delaying the departure so as to cross the Channel behind the weather.
(not familiar with Cardiff opening hours though)
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 19:23
  #1493 (permalink)  

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Pitts, surely as a licence holder yourself, and you were good friends with another pilot you might be aware of the limitations of his licence?

Having said that, in my younger day whilst an RAF pilot I was possibly a little too trusting of others on a few rare occasions. Thankfully, although I have a tale or two to tell, those occasions didn't result in an accident.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 19:46
  #1494 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo View Post
Something that could be a compelling indication of Henderson's interpretation of the flight would be what he was wearing at the time.
Pilot's uniform or sloppy joes?

What is the connection with Bruce Dickinson in all this? I can't find how his name came up.
Bruce Dickinson is the Chairman and a pilot of the company that flew Sala to Cardiff in their Eclipse demonstrator. From their website.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 20:52
  #1495 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Pittsextra View Post
Really? that is your natural exchange with your fellow pilots when you are a pax?
I have actually had this conversation on several occasions. My first of these was with a 21 year old bush pilot in Namibia, operating a C206 under an AOC. I always insisted on sitting in the front right hand seat where, if necessary, I could reach the controls. Apart from anything else it made my wife more relaxed. When he forgot to put the parking brake on for his power checks and the aircraft lurched across the hold it was actually me that stamped on the foot brakes.

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Old 26th Feb 2019, 23:31
  #1496 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
So you were unbelievably lucky to never have a ramp check and carrying passengers, never had to show the 90 day rule on a check?
I have been ramp checked twice (in 3600 hours, first time at about 3000 hours, second time because the company was having compliance management issues that were subsequently resolved, so it is hardly "unbelievably lucky" not to have been) and never been asked for a log book. One of those was in Frankfurt, and the Germans are not known for their relaxed attitude to paperwork. There is no legal requirement for a pilot to carry a log book in flight. I have never heard anyone claiming such a requirement, no idea where you got that from. According to Schedule 9 the only crew document to be carried is the licence.

Funnily enough, in the military they do all they can to avoid carrying either crew log books or aircraft documents in the aircraft. If more than one aircraft is flying to another airfield, each carries the other's tech log.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 07:15
  #1497 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ShropshirePilot View Post
Eutychus (...) Certainly if I lived on an island, had a plane and flew it a lot, I'd want to fill the seats whether for a contribution or not BUT only with people that I knew and knew well.
Sure. I'm asking because I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that almost all of the flights I took were for the sole purpose of bringing pax (on all occasions, the aircraft flew out empty to get us and flew back empty immediately after returning us to our point of departure) and serious doubts, in view of what I've learned on this thread, as to their legality. On another occasion there were two pax (plus the pilot's spouse) on an N-registered Piper that had, as I understand it, made a stopover on a longer journey via our pickup airport for the sole purpose of picking us up. There was no common purpose whatsoever with the pilot and their spouse (who we did not know from Adam) apart from us all wanting to arrive on the same island. I would have thought this was pretty obvious to ground staff but nobody in the CI, or in France, seemed to find it odd.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 07:16
  #1498 (permalink)  
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From someone who works in compliance (including legal contract compliance) and the software/finance industry, its pretty hard to think this discussion about logbooks and license validation is taking place in 2019...it sounds more like it belongs to 1979. Kinda ironic given the relentless technical advance in some aspects of aviation, that other parts seem mired in the dark ages and for no obvious reason.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 07:44
  #1499 (permalink)  
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Further diving operations

The dive vessel 'Skindeep' has arrived in the area of the wreckage.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 12:41
  #1500 (permalink)  
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If I had been invited to take a passenger seat on that journey I'd have declined on four seperate reasons.

1) I don't fly at my employer's behest except on a (minimum) twin turbine aircraft.
2) I don't fly at my employer's behest except on a Perf Cat A aircraft.
3) I don't fly at my employer's behest with less than a CPL (IR) at the controls.
4) I don't fly at my employer's behest if any of the flight is IMC/IFR without two pilots properly trained in 2 crew ops.

And I'd recommend anyone who values their own skin to do the same. But of course I only know that as a pilot. Joe public can't make judgements like that because he has no knowlege of how aviation works. That's why it is so important that the lesson that comes out of this sorry business is that the public must be made aware of what is acceptable practice charter-wise and what isn't.

Following that dreadful accident where an entire positioning crew was lost in a piston twin some time ago (Was it British Midland?) my last employer - a notoriosly stingy loco - didn't even try to argue when we got BALPA to ask them to stop piston twin transfers. Their duty of care was evidently explained by their lawyers to good effect.

Last edited by meleagertoo; 27th Feb 2019 at 13:04.
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