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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 26th Feb 2019, 04:24
  #1481 (permalink)  
 
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What a total waste of time and energy this whole thing will become. No doubt we can spin our wheels for the next - what? 2, 3 years before a final report gets published and all for what exactly?

The AAIB and others will consume huge resource and present a lovely comprehensive report to tell us what? The Met looked marginal for his planned flight and his ratings and the cost sharing element is parallel to that. BUT to what end is all of this? Cost sharing pros/cons have been done to death, pilots are aware of the rules, the CAA are aware of the rules and even if there is some item of question in this flight so what the pilot is dead.

What would be a better use of time and resource would be free the AAIB to investigate the remainder of what is on their book in a more timely manner and any resource impact for the CAA to spend time and energy going through the rules they have to ensure they say what they think they mean, oh and maybe do the odd ramp check.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 05:51
  #1482 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by skyrangerpro View Post
...But then the corollary of your point is that the pilot knowingly flew a commercial flight and portrayed it as such without the necessary licence which I find extraordinary.
On the contrary, in respect of the circumstances surrounding this sorry operation I suspect it’ll eventually be found to have been quite ordinary.
Originally Posted by positiverate20 View Post
Yes I agree entirely. It's chilling in a way... the old saying, in IMC a VFR pilot has only got 3 minutes to survive. This pilot requested descent to return to VMC.
Which raises the question: how do you fly in VMC over water at night under an overcast out of site of land?

From experience you have absolutely no external references, you cannot see the surface from any height, you cannot see clouds to avoid them, there’s just inky blackness in every direction and you cannot control an aircraft without total reliance on instruments. His descent might have put him clear of cloud but it wouldn’t have put him in VMC.

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Old 26th Feb 2019, 10:18
  #1483 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pittsextra View Post
What if the cost of the aircraft was invoiced 30 days later... pilot is dead, invoice just becomes due how does he pay or how do you prove his intention to pay?? All this is irrevelant noise. Pilot porked it in poor weather for all the crazy reasons people do that same as the instructor in Glos. Reported on recently... AAIB saying same things changes nothing
Pitts, this flight operated to a schedule. Sala was always due to leave on that date at that time regardless of the circumstances. Dave Ibbotson, unless he had a crystal ball, could not have guaranteed to conduct a flight under VFR to a schedule. That made him a dangerously reckless pilot. The circumstances that turned him into a dangerously reckless pilot are just as important as the reasons why he did a spiral dive into the Channel.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 10:34
  #1484 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Luc Lion View Post
TAF and METAR for Cardiff and Jersey were:

EGFF 211644Z 2116/2212 22012KT 9999 SCT035 TEMPO 2116/2120 7000 -RA TEMPO
2120/2124 23016G26KT 6000 RA BKN010 PROB30 TEMPO 2120/2124 27020G30KT 4000 RA
BKN006 BECMG 2121/2124 28012KT TEMPO 2208/2212 6000 SHRA BKN010 PROB30 TEMPO
2208/2210 3000 SHRA SHRASN BKN008 PROB30 TEMPO 2210/2212 SHRA TSGS BKN008

EGFF 211820Z AUTO 22011KT 9999 -RA BKN021 OVC034 07/05 Q1014
EGFF 211850Z AUTO 23012KT 9999 -RA BKN020 BKN026 OVC045 07/05 Q1013
EGFF 211920Z AUTO 22011KT 9999 BKN033 BKN044 07/05 Q1013
EGFF 211950Z AUTO 22013KT 9999 BKN033 07/05 Q1012
EGFF 212020Z AUTO 22012KT 9999 SCT026 BKN034 07/05 Q1011
EGFF 212050Z AUTO 20012KT 9999 BKN023/// BKN039/// //////TCU 07/05 Q1010
EGFF 212120Z AUTO 20012KT 9999 -RA SCT024 BKN033 BKN040 07/05 Q1009
EGFF 212150Z AUTO 21012KT 6000 -RA BKN020/// OVC026/// //////TCU 07/06 Q1008

EGJJ 211707Z 2118/2203 20010KT 9999 FEW015 BKN030 TEMPO 2118/2124 -RA BKN015
PROB30 TEMPO 2118/2121 7000 SHRA BKN012 BECMG 2121/2123 22020KT BECMG 2202/2203
31017KT NSW SCT015

EGJJ 211820Z 22010KT 9999 SCT014 SCT025 BKN040 06/04 Q1019
EGJJ 211850Z 22011KT 9999 FEW018 SCT021 07/04 Q1018
EGJJ 211920Z 22011KT 9999 FEW016 SCT018 07/04 Q1018
EGJJ 211950Z 22012KT 9999 FEW018 SCT020 06/04 Q1017
EGJJ 212020Z 22013KT 9999 R26/1400 SCT014 07/04 Q1017
EGJJ 212050Z AUTO 22015KT 9999 1200 R26/1200 BR SCT014/// SCT018/// BKN033///
07/05 Q1016
EGJJ 212120Z AUTO 22015KT 9999 1400 FEW013/// OVC028/// 07/05 Q1016 RERA
EGJJ 212150Z AUTO 21015KT 9999 1400 FEW014/// SCT017/// BKN032/// 07/05 Q1015
RERA

This set of weather data, available before the flight SCREAMS to any sane PPL, even with IMC and Night ratings, and current, and experienced etc etc "Don't Go!" Or at least it does to me. My ex CFI friend says to me that my competence exceeds my confidence and that is the way I like it! If and I say if I had been slightly tempted to do this journey at this time, I would have routed via SAM in clear air, and had a get out of jail free option there. Alas the pilot had a chance to change his mind when overflying Guernsey and didn't take it. In general I like a direct routing but in weather like this, it's best to chunk the journey into safe sectors and be prepared to abandon at any time. I have, of course, had get home-itis in my flying career but this accident reminds us that we all must have a the willingness to "just say NO".

Yes, I am all in agreement with everyone talking about the legalities or lack thereof in this journey but let's learn from this and examine ourselves whether flying privately or commercially.... If you have any nagging hesitancy about any element of a flight, stay on the ground!! And stay on the right side of the competence Vs confidence equation, it's served me well and I intend for it to continue to keep me and my friends alive a long while yet.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 11:18
  #1485 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Pittsextra View Post
No they are not the pilot is dead so the person with the greatest need to learn cant. Everyone and anyone with any sense in the chain will claim to know nothing and unless commanded by a greater authority than the CAA financial transactions will stay private. You know and i know what was going on we dont need a multi year paper trail to tell us. Nor does it help the CAA to know the facts. They cant seek redress from a dead man and they have no resource or authoity for things gping forward.
Pittsextra, you appear to be missing the rationale of accident investigations by the AAIB.
Ibbotson knew exactly why the accident occurred, if only for a few brief seconds, obviously by then it was far too late for him to get a second chance.
However, others might learn from the investigation, which btw is not to apportion blame.

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Old 26th Feb 2019, 11:24
  #1486 (permalink)  
 
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Nor does it help the CAA to know the facts
Come on Pitts, both the legality of the flight and the cause of the accident are important. I am pretty sure Sala’s family want to know the extent to which the regulations were broken. I do not see establishing that as a waste of money; it is surely the duty of the regulator to establish the facts so the Sala family can seek justice.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 12:21
  #1487 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
I have been saying for years that the laws requiring licences and log books to be carried on board the aircraft are bonkers, precisely because this means they're likely to be unavailable when they'd be of most interest.
Agreed completely!
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 12:55
  #1488 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Winniebago View Post
BD was, but may not have still been at the time, associated with the penultimate aircraft Sala flew in down to Nantes, the Eclipse 500 on the 'N' register - not on an AOC
According to the Bulletin Sala was flown to Nantes in the accident aircraft by Ibbotson.

As for cost sharing, the bulletin simply points out that is the only way this flight could have been legal. As the AAIB don’t apportion blame it is for the reader to join up the dots.

The pilot spent the weekend in Nantes. Unless he hob-nobbed with Sala and his mates all weekend there is no ‘common purpose’. As Henderson’s credit card seems to have been used to cover all costs, it would take quite a stretch of the imagination to find any cost sharing.

Getting to the truth of who paid what to whom will be difficult and probably outside the AAIB’s remit, but by pointing out that the flight was illegal they may spur the CAA and police to take it further.

Greater enforcement might discourage this kind of operation, but the good will remain good and the bad will mostly stay bad.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 13:26
  #1489 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford View Post
Agreed completely!
I've never carried my personal log book on any aircraft, in forty years of flying for a living.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 14:05
  #1490 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
So you were unbelievably lucky to never have a ramp check and carrying passengers, never had to show the 90 day rule on a check?
That's a new one on me - if that's the case, could someone kindly tell me where the requirement to carry your log book is written down? Flew airline GA and Airlines for 40 years - only saw a couple of guys carry them (just to immediately fill them in rather than do it at home)

I thought that the following applied : (ANO 235) During the period of two years beginning with the date of the last entry in it every person required by article 228 to keep a personal flying log must cause it to be produced to an authorised person within a reasonable time after being requested to do so by that person.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 14:08
  #1491 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
So you were unbelievably lucky to never have a ramp check and carrying passengers, never had to show the 90 day rule on a check?
It is not actually a requirement to carry a logbook, or even to keep one. The requirement is to keep a record of the flight, which could be an entry in a diary. The record only has to have a small amount of information, nothing like the number of columns that are in most log books.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 14:16
  #1492 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Eutychus View Post

So I keep wondering whether, as it appears to me, such grey charters are widespread practice in the CI, but each time I ask anybody on this thread who seems to be based there, I'm met with deafening silence. Would you care to offer a view?

I agree with you. It's the same as EASA also introducing genuine common purpose for cost sharing. I've said so twice here, without a response.

We're all quick at pointing fingers when things go wrong but we seem reluctant to tighten up the rules which make grey commercial flying possible, maybe all of us have a friend who sometimes gets to fly a jockey, a football player or a star....
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 14:31
  #1493 (permalink)  
 
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https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...LBAL_10-15.pdf
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 14:49
  #1494 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by positiverate20 View Post
The root cause was that the driver was not qualified to undertake that journey.
A small but crucial point (l used to teach this stuff). A root cause analysis should always, where possible, have at each step someone doing something and then ask why. Otherwise we’ll stop too soon, or go off down the wrong track. So the statement should be

”a contributing factor was that the driver undertook that journey when he was not qualified to do so”

​​​​​
Then we get an obvious “WHY?” to ask. Maybe he thought he could get away with it. Why? Maybe he was under pressure. WHY? Maybe he was doing a favour for someone. WHY? Maybe he was unaware of the risks. WHY?

... and so on. You see my point. It opens up the causal tree, rather than closing it down. We then get more questions. Usually it will start with the kit and its operations and slowly focus in on organizational and human factors.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 16:17
  #1495 (permalink)  
 
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What about life insurance?

These illegal charters are hard to detect and stop, so should there be an education campaign by CAA and perhaps the insurance companies? From reading Wingly posts it appears that most people think this is a brilliant facility and have no idea of the financial risk they are running as well as obvious risks from pilot incompetence such as the sad example being discussed.

When I began flying 55 years ago I had a mortgage secured against an endowment insurance policy which would pay off the mortgage on maturity. That policy excluded any form of flying except as a passenger on a commercial flight by a multi-engined aircraft. Sun Life refused to vary this so I had to arrange a new policy at considerable expense, with a 10% premium loading to cover my PPL activities. A similar loading was imposed 20 years later when my business partner and I took out a policy to cover the death of each other.

Today one of the big insurance companies imposes a £12 per month per £100,000 cover loading on PPLs' life insurance policies. It follows that this company recognises the greater risks involved. I would like to know if other companies also restrict their life cover to commercial flights. Since most if not all mortgage companies insist on their customers having life insurance to clear the mortgage in the event of their deaths, maybe people should be aware of the financial consequences if they are aboard the next 'cost-sharing' charter that goes down?
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 16:26
  #1496 (permalink)  
 
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I don't know what answers those querying CI flights are expecting. A rash of "yes I do it but have got away with it up to now" answers? Never going to happen.

M9 (flew completely legally to Jersey with two pax on cost share basis last weekend)
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 17:28
  #1497 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pittsextra View Post
...
That seems entirely sensible. You believe it isn't because you have the benefit of hindsight now but on the face of it what is to be worried about? Pilots around the world would simply take on face value that an experienced pilot filing a VFR flight was capable of making the weather decision.
...
If I had been invited to take a passenger seat on that journey, I would have asked why was it planned as a low altitude night VFR flight plan over open sea rather than than a high altitude IFR flight plan.
I would quite probably have requested to see the TAF and METAR for destination and for Jersey and I would probably have declined the offer.
Because the plan was unnecessarily accumulating several risk factors.
After reading the TAF, I would probably have asked what about delaying the departure so as to cross the Channel behind the weather.
(not familiar with Cardiff opening hours though)
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 18:23
  #1498 (permalink)  

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Pitts, surely as a licence holder yourself, and you were good friends with another pilot you might be aware of the limitations of his licence?

Having said that, in my younger day whilst an RAF pilot I was possibly a little too trusting of others on a few rare occasions. Thankfully, although I have a tale or two to tell, those occasions didn't result in an accident.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 18:46
  #1499 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo View Post
Something that could be a compelling indication of Henderson's interpretation of the flight would be what he was wearing at the time.
Pilot's uniform or sloppy joes?

What is the connection with Bruce Dickinson in all this? I can't find how his name came up.
Bruce Dickinson is the Chairman and a pilot of the company that flew Sala to Cardiff in their Eclipse demonstrator. From their website.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 19:52
  #1500 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pittsextra View Post
Really? that is your natural exchange with your fellow pilots when you are a pax?
I have actually had this conversation on several occasions. My first of these was with a 21 year old bush pilot in Namibia, operating a C206 under an AOC. I always insisted on sitting in the front right hand seat where, if necessary, I could reach the controls. Apart from anything else it made my wife more relaxed. When he forgot to put the parking brake on for his power checks and the aircraft lurched across the hold it was actually me that stamped on the foot brakes.


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