Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 22nd Feb 2019, 11:29
  #1441 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: somewhere warm
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by The Nip View Post


I have read a report, although can't find it now, that there was a problem/amendment with the contract. It was returned and was awaiting a further signature from the player.

How true I don't know.
It was in the Daily Star. I cannot post URLs but you can simply search Sala on their website. There are two articles, one entitled
Emiliano Sala’s Cardiff contract 'not valid’ for Premier League
and one

Why Emiliano Sala transfer row could end up in COURT – Prem star-turned lawyer lifts lid
G4HQ is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2019, 12:33
  #1442 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Central UK
Posts: 259
Originally Posted by The Nip View Post


I have read a report, although can't find it now, that there was a problem/amendment with the contract. It was returned and was awaiting a further signature from the player.

How true I don't know.
True enough by the sound of it. This article also describes timings of contractural details etc.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...600k-7x80wflkg
meleagertoo is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2019, 14:26
  #1443 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 509
Interim report to be published 2pm Monday.
runway30 is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2019, 07:02
  #1444 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,258
There’s more in the following link about the footballing and agency side of this accident (not behind a paywall):

https://www.theguardian.com/football...o-sala-cardiff

McKay insists he hiredthe private return flightfor Sala to say his goodbyes in Nantes because Cardiff offered only scheduled British Airways flights. He says he booked the flight via a pilot he used sometimes, Dave Henderson, and that he did not know which plane would be used or that the pilot would be Dave Ibbotson, whose body has still not been found after the Piper Malibu light aircraft crashed.

Dalman (ed: the Cardiff city chairman) .said the club did not know the details of the flight McKay arranged for Sala after they signed him; McKay insists the club was aware he had arranged the flight.
wiggy is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2019, 08:04
  #1445 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 12,106
The word "hire" is very relevant.
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2019, 11:09
  #1446 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 509
More information in the Sunday papers. The aircraft owner has been named as Cool Flourish Ltd. by the Daily Mail. The name will have been known to the Daily Mail for some time (they probably read it here).

The pilot of the Eclipse which brought Sala inbound to CWL on the Friday has been named by The Telegraph as David Hayman, CEO of Aeris Aviation. Willie McKay says that the unavailability of David Henderson and David Hayman to fly the Eclipse was the reason that Dave Ibbotson was drafted in to fly the PA46 (but he took no part in that decision of course).
runway30 is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 06:48
  #1447 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by runway30 View Post

The pilot of the Eclipse which brought Sala inbound to CWL on the Friday has been named by The Telegraph as David Hayman, CEO of Aeris Aviation. Willie McKay says that the unavailability of David Henderson and David Hayman to fly the Eclipse was the reason that Dave Ibbotson was drafted in to fly the PA46 (but he took no part in that decision of course).
...and presumably the Eclipse flight was flown entirely gratis, out the kindness of the heart, seeing as being a privately 'N' registered jet, not on an AOC, there was no legal mechanism for the hire of the aircraft?
Winniebago is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 06:54
  #1448 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 839
Originally Posted by Winniebago View Post
...and presumably the Eclipse flight was flown entirely gratis, out the kindness of the heart, seeing as being a privately 'N' registered jet, not on an AOC, there was no legal mechanism for the hire of the aircraft?
How do you know it wasn’t a legal charter? The pilot is named as “CEO of Aeris Aviation”. From his company profile:

”Founder and CEO of Aeris Aviation Limited. A Commercial Pilot and is the Chief Pilot for the company”
Jonzarno is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 07:07
  #1449 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by Jonzarno View Post


How do you know it wasn’t a legal charter? The pilot is named as “CEO of Aeris Aviation”. From his company profile:

”Founder and CEO of Aeris Aviation Limited. A Commercial Pilot and is the Chief Pilot for the company”
Aeris Aviation don't have an AOC, it's an aircraft sales company. Now they could have lent/leased the aircraft to Channel Jets who do have a Guernsey AOC and operate Eclipses, but to the best of my knowledge you can't substitute a 2-REG aircraft with any old privately owned and operated N-registered aircraft and charter that when it suits you.
Winniebago is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 09:38
  #1450 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Zulu Time Zone
Posts: 616
From AIN dated 10 Jan 19:

Unauthorized air charter—often called gray charter and even “Part 134 1/2” operations—has long been illegal. Yet some aircraft operators still flout or inadvertently violate the FARs involving proper on-demand or charter operations. Continuing to operate such disguised charters with impunity or in obscurity might be short-lived, however, as the FAA has recently ramped up its investigations and enforcement actions against such offenders.....
Gray Charter Violations. In a December 4 press release, the FAA announced a proposed $624,000 civil penalty against Steele Aviation of Beverly Hills, California, for allegedly conducting 16 customer-carrying jet flights “for hire” when the company did not have the air carrier certificate required for these operations and allegedly used unqualified pilots. The case illustrates how the FAA will pursue charter operations that appear normal but blatantly fail to qualify for charter services under Parts 135 and 119..
oggers is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 13:09
  #1451 (permalink)  
Just a numbered other
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Earth
Age: 67
Posts: 1,153
Arkroyal is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 13:28
  #1452 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cardiff
Age: 43
Posts: 90
Granted that this is only an interim report - but it must surely be unsatisfactory that the details of Mr Ibbotson's FAA PPL and EASA PPL are still unclear and not on record somewhere. The AAIB report says they appear to have been in the aircraft and consequently lost.
The report makes also it clear that Mr Ibbotson SHOULD have been paying for half the cost of the flight AND that he was required to have "common purpose" to fly to Cardiff that night.
korrol is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 14:20
  #1453 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: S.E.Asia
Posts: 1,733
Originally Posted by vanHorck View Post
It makes for painful reading. The track and altitudes suggest to me a possible scenario of spatial disorientation (the Kennedy accident springs to mind) , perhaps due to IMC conditions, unless he decided to turn back to land at an alternate? 180 degrees turn to the right, a climb prior to the crash. I hope they will find the iPad and perhaps recover data from it.

I am happy the AAIB seems to also be looking into the legislative part of the flight.

I am also happy the AAIB have confirmed for non commercial on an N register an equal part cost sharing and common purpose are required. No ambiguity here! EASA should in my view adopt the same common purpose for cost sharing.
The UK night rating is easy to obtain if you only fly near built up areas. However flying over the sea or mountains at night is a different scenario. It appears in this case the pilot was very experienced in day paradropping where most of his hours were acquired.

I got my UK night rating with only five hours experience at Cardiff back in 1982. Amazingly that allowed me to fly from Guernsey to Cardiff at night with no visual reference to the surface.I say none because it is often difficult to see the sea at night and certainly from a safe altitude in a small hand flown aircraft.

I wonder if his lack of communication with Guernsey and concern for the weather was because of his training at a small airfield?

Feeling intimated by the situation he found himself in with a reluctance to admit to his passenger and air traffic he was out of his depth?

He was flying a nicely equipped Malibu with a full coupled three axis autopilot. He could have declared a pan and asked for help or indeed just diverted in to Guernsey and told the passenger it was because of weather problems.

The bottom line is just like the Buddy Holly pilot he decided he could not admit the circumstances were beyond his skills.

Mike Flynn is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 14:28
  #1454 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Zulu Time Zone
Posts: 616
As anticipated, the report clarifies that this WAS an illegal flight. At the very least it was an illegal private flight by Ibbotson. It is also clear that the flight cannot have been operated legally as a charter, even though we shall have to wait to see if - as seems likely - and to what extent this was an illegal charter by an uncertified operator using a private pilot.

I'm not sure there will be a definitive cause established for the accident itself. But if by lifting the lid on this sordid arrangement the cowboy operators get their wings clipped, that will be a significant contribution to flight safety.
oggers is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 15:08
  #1455 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: S.E.Asia
Posts: 1,733
Originally Posted by oggers View Post
As anticipated, the report clarifies that this WAS an illegal flight. At the very least it was an illegal private flight by Ibbotson. It is also clear that the flight cannot have been operated legally as a charter, even though we shall have to wait to see if - as seems likely - and to what extent this was an illegal charter by an uncertified operator using a private pilot.

I'm not sure there will be a definitive cause established for the accident itself. But if by lifting the lid on this sordid arrangement the cowboy operators get their wings clipped, that will be a significant contribution to flight safety.
Agreed and that must include ‘Wingly’ type flights and the N reg grey area.

The latter operate behind US trusts etc and often UK limited companies.

I feel sorry for the legitimate UK AOC operators who see these cowboys undercutting their rates.

Mike Flynn is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 15:37
  #1456 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Belfast
Posts: 35
Originally Posted by oggers View Post
As anticipated, the report clarifies that this WAS an illegal flight. At the very least it was an illegal private flight by Ibbotson. It is also clear that the flight cannot have been operated legally as a charter, even though we shall have to wait to see if - as seems likely - and to what extent this was an illegal charter by an uncertified operator using a private pilot.

I'm not sure there will be a definitive cause established for the accident itself. But if by lifting the lid on this sordid arrangement the cowboy operators get their wings clipped, that will be a significant contribution to flight safety.
Exactly, the fact that the interim report focuses attention to the illegality of the flight is reassuring. I feared that the AAIB might 'cop-out' and merely investigate the mechanics of the crash. They have provided substantial insight into the direction of their investigation. In light of the fact that the pilot is still missing and his family still grieving, they've made a very a strong statement.

The legality of the flight is a very important aspect- if you fly illegally or in a "grey area" you will be brought to book. The fact that this operation was carried out 'under pressure', as part of a substantial 'commercial contract', at night, by a PIC with only a PPL without night or instrument certification during VMC, in an N registered plane without an AOC, without 'common purpose' while the pilot was 'all expenses paid' plus presumable remuneration. If any one of those factors were different then this may not have happened. If the pilot wasn't under that pressure his decision making might/should have been substantially different. The radar track in itself is likely to provide the technical explanation for the crash. Pilot was out of his depth.

What's the difference between this and an unlicensed car driver high on drugs driving into roadworks- the technical cause of death may be improper airbag function etc etc. The root cause was that the driver was not qualified to undertake that journey. He didn't see the signs, or take the necessary avoiding action, that if he were properly qualified (and without additional stress) would have been expected to have taken.

If you don't think legality is an issue, then why should anyone bother paying for flight lessons to begin with, paying insurance, adhering to regulations, paying for Certification as an Air Operator? Are they simply just 'costs' for the sake of it? Or do they ensure that those certified have an adequate level of training, adequate adherence to relevant regulations and an assurance to operate only with safety (and the safety of any passengers) as a priority?
positiverate20 is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 15:41
  #1457 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,215
Wow, that pilot had approximately 3,700 hours, so he definitely did know what he was doing. Nobody could ignore all things told over so many hours.

And why the F<self-censored> did he descent instead of going through the rain or turn back to Guernsey?
Yes, it would be nasty and one would have to apologize later, but he was low enough to be clear of icing and had a capable aircraft.
This flight path ... failure of the autopilot followed by spatial disorientation of the untrained pilot?
Where was the autopilot mounted in the aircraft, any chance in this mess to determine the final setting?

Last edited by ChickenHouse; 25th Feb 2019 at 16:02.
ChickenHouse is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 15:46
  #1458 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Age: 62
Posts: 175
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post

The UK night rating is easy to obtain if you only fly near built up areas. However flying over the sea or mountains at night is a different scenario. It appears in this case the pilot was very experienced in day paradropping where most of his hours were acquired.

I got my UK night rating with only five hours experience at Cardiff back in 1982. Amazingly that allowed me to fly from Guernsey to Cardiff at night with no visual reference to the surface.I say none because it is often difficult to see the sea at night and certainly from a safe altitude in a small hand flown aircraft.
F

Mike Flynn are you sure that's correct, I understood the UK night rating on a PPL to be UK FIR only, same as the IMC
golfbananajam is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 15:48
  #1459 (permalink)  
Just a numbered other
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Earth
Age: 67
Posts: 1,153
Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
Wow, that pilot had approximately 3,700 hours, so he definitely did know what he was doing. Nobody could ignore all things told over so many hours.
3,700 hours or the same hour of VFR 3,700 times?

Sad story. Poor Sala.
Arkroyal is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 16:00
  #1460 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Louth
Posts: 1
Hi Positiverate20

Where did all that come from? The AAIB report said nothing about “The fact that this operation was carried out 'under pressure', as part of a substantial 'commercial contract', “ unless I missed something. The AAIB report confirms that the pilot held an FAA licence, so flight in an N registered aircraft across an international border was Ok, and the FAA doesn’t prohibit cost sharing flights. The only questions are whether the pilot’s licence and ratings were valid and how much of the cost was he planning to pay? If at least half then it’s within the FAA regulations.

As for pilots taking passengers flying, if examiners think that a GST candidate isn’t fit to take non-pilots flying then they shouldn’t give a pass on the GST.

What would you do, make PPL solo flying only? They don’t do that with cars, so why aircraft?
ianf100 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.