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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:03
  #1261 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


Because they have left an audit trail with landing fees, fuel and hotel being paid for.
You have a good point there. But it would seem that he did pay himself those bills , just using someone else credit card. A lawyer might argue that he was merely borrowing a friend credit card and , just like cash being borrowed , and he intended to repay the owner of the credit card. Highly unlikely I grant you that and in addition in France at least using someone else credit card is illegal. But who is held responsible for using the card, the one that gave the card or the one using it ?

Anyway the AAIB will probably not going to investigate this as it falls outside their level of expertise and it is anyway outside the scope of ICAO Annex 13 , this is for the criminal investigation to do I would say, if there is a criminal investigation..
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:16
  #1262 (permalink)  
 
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I think I said it before but.....

On the face of forum speculation, there doesn't appear to be a smoking gun. There is, however, a balance of probability that puts a number of people in the spotlight. I personally don't expect any criminal prosecutions for this event, but I fully expect a load of insurance company sponsored ambulance chasers in the civil courts. (Said as someone who occasionally does expert witness work for such occurrences).
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:30
  #1263 (permalink)  
 
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If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then the illegal operator is also responsible.
If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then, de facto, it is a private flight. If the pilot only had a PPL how can it be anything else? He could pretend he had a CPL, or ATPL, or fly rockets for NASA - doesn't change that fact.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:31
  #1264 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Daysleeper View Post
Because it's an N reg aircraft and therefore must comply with the US rules.
EASA regs allow the use of a foreign registered aircraft but FAA regs specify equally. In any event, you are not allowed to use a complex aircraft.

European and National regulations permit cost sharing as follows:

  • The flight is a cost-shared flight by private individuals.
  • The direct costs of the flight must be shared between all of the occupants of the aircraft, including the pilot, up to a maximum of 6 persons.
  • The cost-sharing arrangements apply to any other-than complex motor-powered EASA aircraft and this includes aircraft registered outside of the EASA area but operated by an operator established or residing in the Community.
  • Cost-sharing is also permitted in non-EASA (Annex II of the Basic Regulation) aircraft registered in the UK.


Direct costs means the costs directly incurred in relation to a flight (e.g. fuel, airfield charges, rental fee for an aircraft). There can be no element of profit.



Annual costs which cannot be included in the cost sharing are the cost of keeping, maintaining, insuring and operating the aircraft over a period of one calendar year. There can be no element of profit.

Additional guidance

  • In the case of a jointly-owned aircraft, the CAA considers the hourly rate, normally payable by a joint owner, for use of their aircraft to be a 'direct cost'.
  • Cost shared flights can be advertised, including the use of online 'flight sharing' platforms.
  • It is recommended that any advertising or promotion of cost-sharing flights makes it clear that they are private arrangements and not conducted in accordance with commercial air transport or, where appropriate, public transport rules.
  • Passengers should be made aware that the pilot may amend or cancel the flight for any reason, including at short notice.
  • The proportion of the costs that must be shared by the pilot is not specified in the regulations; however, the pilot must make a contribution to the direct costs of the flight that he is conducting.
  • The General Exemption (ORS4 No.1274) which permits cost-sharing flights for Annex II aircraft only applies to flights conducted within the London and Scottish Information Regions.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:36
  #1265 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CBSITCB View Post
If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then, de facto, it is a private flight. If the pilot only had a PPL how can it be anything else? He could pretend he had a CPL, or ATPL, or fly rockets for NASA - doesn't change that fact.
Great, Iím off to start my air charter company. Can you guys form a queue outside my door, Iím hiring, but donít forget when it all goes wrong youíre responsible and Iíll be in the Bahamas.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:43
  #1266 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
Great, Iím off to start my air charter company. Can you guys form a queue outside my door, Iím hiring, but donít forget when it all goes wrong youíre responsible and Iíll be in the Bahamas.
And it will go wrong, because they will be illegal private flights - but private flights nevertheless.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:44
  #1267 (permalink)  
 
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The final outcome of this investigation will make an interesting read.
I can't help but feel sorry for Mr. Ibbotson, whilst I don't in any way condone his actions of deciding to fly that evening I can sort of understand why.
As others have mentioned, the hole was dug for him long before it got into that aircraft.
However, surely the root cause of this accident is the aviation industry, as an aircraft engineer I (thankfully) never had to go down the expensive, torturous route of trying to get a job flying a commercial aircraft.
Now, I don't know if Mr. Ibbotson was happy tootling around the skies with a PPL of if he had greater ambitions.
Assuming the latter, he would have (understandably) almost taken any opportunity to build up his hours.
IMHO, it's the system thats to blame, as far as I'm aware you don't hear of accountants, lawyers, surgeons etc. paying for their training, work experience, place of work etc.
Now I'll get off my soap box !

Last edited by Webby737; 10th Feb 2019 at 16:45. Reason: grammer
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 17:08
  #1268 (permalink)  
 
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Mr Ibbotson was 59.

Lawyers etc. have internships where they don't get paid to get experience.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 17:19
  #1269 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hipper View Post
Mr Ibbotson was 59.
Lawyers etc. have internships where they don't get paid to get experience.
Just so. But hardly an ideal time of life to start looking at CPL/ATPL etc.by racking up a few hours in borrowed aircraft.

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Old 10th Feb 2019, 18:11
  #1270 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Of course !, but how do you want to prove this if everyone involved ( still alive) says it was a private arrangement and no money was involved?
No money changed hands?

By all accounts this aircraft has been engaged in these activities for quite some time so an audit of the historic movements of money relating to its operation will reveal who is likely to have funded its fateful last flight.

I have no idea how much a Malibu costs to run but I am able to estimate that the fuel cost alone is some £150/hr. So what is the likelihood that the owner is a charitable organisation set up to provide free transportation to ridiculously wealthy footballers?

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Old 10th Feb 2019, 19:01
  #1271 (permalink)  
 
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complex confusion

Originally Posted by runway30 View Post

EASA regs allow the use of a foreign registered aircraft but FAA regs specify equally. In any event, you are not allowed to use a complex aircraft.


Why would any EASA cost sharing regulation apply when an aircraft of US registry is operated by a pilot with an FAA license? The only requirement, of which I'm aware, is that the holder of an FAA PPL must have received training in a complex aircraft and have that endorsed in their log book - ref 61.31 (d). Is there any reason to assume that the accident pilot did not have a complex endorsement in his log book? I doubt someone just gave him the keys of the Malibu if he had never flown a complex aircraft before.

Last edited by EXDAC; 10th Feb 2019 at 19:06. Reason: added "cost sharing" to "any EASA regulation"
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 19:20
  #1272 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EXDAC View Post
I doubt someone just gave him the keys of the Malibu if he had never flown a complex aircraft before.
I have been working in general aviation for nearly 30 years and I don't doubt anything anymore.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 19:40
  #1273 (permalink)  
 
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HIGH PROFILE and MONEY

There are two factors here that will ensure finding a 'responsibility trail '.When substantial amounts of money are concerned there will be parties that require that 'someone pays' and the legal 'chasers' will then get to deal with it in their own way.
Eventually someone will be held financially responsible which may THEN lead to a further legal battle with the relevant authorities.
With few actual witnesses or corroborated information then the process will be protracted and complicated.
As alluded before this could well be the equivalent of a 'Shoreham Showdown' for non scheduled quasi commercial operations, and ramifications for many operations including genuine clubs.
The CAA have as part of their mandate a responsibility to ensure safe passage for commercial passengers both scheduled and 'charter' but it is unreasonable to expect them to police the entire aviation spectrum with current resources, and with the latitude now being shown via EASA regs prosecutions are frequently only possible with substantial intelligence led information, and or input from other parties.
I hope this does not reduce the level of 'cause investigation' with regard to the recent loss of two UK pilots in Spain, because there may well be some useful lessons to be learnt from that.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 19:47
  #1274 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


EASA regs allow the use of a foreign registered aircraft but FAA regs specify equally. In any event, you are not allowed to use a complex aircraft.

European and National regulations permit cost sharing as follows:
  • The flight is a cost-shared flight by private individuals.
  • The direct costs of the flight must be shared between all of the occupants of the aircraft, including the pilot, up to a maximum of 6 persons.
  • The cost-sharing arrangements apply to any other-than complex motor-powered EASA aircraft and this includes aircraft registered outside of the EASA area but operated by an operator established or residing in the Community.
  • Cost-sharing is also permitted in non-EASA (Annex II of the Basic Regulation) aircraft registered in the UK.


Direct costs means the costs directly incurred in relation to a flight (e.g. fuel, airfield charges, rental fee for an aircraft). There can be no element of profit.



Annual costs which cannot be included in the cost sharing are the cost of keeping, maintaining, insuring and operating the aircraft over a period of one calendar year. There can be no element of profit.Additional guidance

  • In the case of a jointly-owned aircraft, the CAA considers the hourly rate, normally payable by a joint owner, for use of their aircraft to be a 'direct cost'.
  • Cost shared flights can be advertised, including the use of online 'flight sharing' platforms.
  • It is recommended that any advertising or promotion of cost-sharing flights makes it clear that they are private arrangements and not conducted in accordance with commercial air transport or, where appropriate, public transport rules.
  • Passengers should be made aware that the pilot may amend or cancel the flight for any reason, including at short notice.
  • The proportion of the costs that must be shared by the pilot is not specified in the regulations; however, the pilot must make a contribution to the direct costs of the flight that he is conducting.
  • The General Exemption (ORS4 No.1274) which permits cost-sharing flights for Annex II aircraft only applies to flights conducted within the London and Scottish Information Regions.
What`s that bit above about complex aircraft to which cost sharing does not apply.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 20:02
  #1275 (permalink)  
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Guys, a Malibu is not a "complex aircraft " in the EASA terminology meant here . Check the definition on google if you do not believe me.
And why focusing on cost sharing ?We have no proof that this was the case here, it could be just transporting someone for free. Period. This is allowed on an N registered aircraft, "family and friends" is the correct US phraseology I believe.

Last edited by ATC Watcher; 11th Feb 2019 at 05:57. Reason: correction ,( deleted FAA)
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 20:32
  #1276 (permalink)  
 
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The final outcome of this investigation will make an interesting read.
I can't help but feel sorry for Mr. Ibbotson, whilst I don't in any way condone his actions of deciding to fly that evening I can sort of understand why.
As others have mentioned, the hole was dug for him long before it got into that aircraft.
However, surely the root cause of this accident is the aviation industry, as an aircraft engineer I (thankfully) never had to go down the expensive, torturous route of trying to get a job flying a commercial aircraft.
Now, I don't know if Mr. Ibbotson was happy tootling around the skies with a PPL of if he had greater ambitions.
Assuming the latter, he would have (understandably) almost taken any opportunity to build up his hours.
IMHO, it's the system thats to blame, as far as I'm aware you don't hear of accountants, lawyers, surgeons etc. paying for their training, work experience, place of work etc.
Now I'll get off my soap box !
spot on...excellent post.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 20:33
  #1277 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
If you enforce this, there are easy way to go around this as hours are self declarative for PPL .
And even if you regulate that you have to bring a cerified log book when going to renew your medical , Pilots log books can be altered easily and even the highly regulated aircraft maintenance books can be "tuned in" to fit the purpose if you own the aircraft,
as to the name on a flight plan , not sure a data base on this is possible, but if it did and you wanted to avoid being flagged, just phone the plans or file on internet and write what you want on that field.
Do not underestimate the ingenuity of those that want to beat the system.
Spending a bit of time in Africa opens the mind to what is possible
These are all things that can easily be picked up from ramp checks.
If you are doctoring your logbook, then you are committing fraud. When you sign the little bit in the corner saying "true and correct."

Stricter regulation is not required. Just stricter and more proactive enforcement.

From my experience, you can get away with a lot in Africa and Indonesia by slipping a few bills with the logbook.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 20:44
  #1278 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Guys, a Malibu is not a "complex aircraft " in the EASA or FAA terminology meant here . Check the definition on google if you do not believe me.
And why focusing on cost sharing ?We have no proof that this was the case here, it could be just transporting someone for free. Period. This is allowed on an N registered aircraft, "family and friends" is the correct US phraseology I believe.
I am more than happy to take your word for it, but am bit puzzled that a high performance single capable of cruise at 25000` in pressurised comfort is not listed as complex. Nevertheless I do remember the introduction of HPA for the likes of such machines. Here is an article from the archives on the subject.

https://www.iaopa.eu/mediaServlet/st...PA_revised.pdf

If this remained a current requirement had DI undergone such training.


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Old 10th Feb 2019, 21:04
  #1279 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Ok , let me try this story . I have to say that I am not a lawyer nor an expert in UK rules, but I guess this story is universal .If not then I'll be happy to be corrected.

You own a car , I am a good friend of yours and ask you if I can borrow your car for the week end as mine is U/S, and later tell you my son will drive it up and sown to France to pick up someone . You say yes and give me the cars papers and the keys.
My son comes to me later and says, I cannot do the trip buy my friend John that you know very well, will do it ; you say Ok , not ideal, but OK...
X gets an accident because he drove well above the speed limit and kills someone.

If no money changed hands, it is only the driver who is responsible., not the owner of the car, me who arranged the trip, or,my son who was supposed to drive.
Not true. Any good lawyer would try to sue the owner, the garage that last fixed it, and anybody that had anything to do with it.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 21:38
  #1280 (permalink)  
 
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I have not seen the reason for the delay to the original 0900 flight plan.
A morning departure, I would have thought, would obviously be what Mr Ibbotson would have preferred, so the delay, I would not think, had been his decision
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