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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 10th Feb 2019, 17:36
  #1261 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CBSITCB View Post
If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then, de facto, it is a private flight. If the pilot only had a PPL how can it be anything else? He could pretend he had a CPL, or ATPL, or fly rockets for NASA - doesn't change that fact.
Great, Iím off to start my air charter company. Can you guys form a queue outside my door, Iím hiring, but donít forget when it all goes wrong youíre responsible and Iíll be in the Bahamas.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 17:43
  #1262 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
Great, Iím off to start my air charter company. Can you guys form a queue outside my door, Iím hiring, but donít forget when it all goes wrong youíre responsible and Iíll be in the Bahamas.
And it will go wrong, because they will be illegal private flights - but private flights nevertheless.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 17:44
  #1263 (permalink)  
 
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The final outcome of this investigation will make an interesting read.
I can't help but feel sorry for Mr. Ibbotson, whilst I don't in any way condone his actions of deciding to fly that evening I can sort of understand why.
As others have mentioned, the hole was dug for him long before it got into that aircraft.
However, surely the root cause of this accident is the aviation industry, as an aircraft engineer I (thankfully) never had to go down the expensive, torturous route of trying to get a job flying a commercial aircraft.
Now, I don't know if Mr. Ibbotson was happy tootling around the skies with a PPL of if he had greater ambitions.
Assuming the latter, he would have (understandably) almost taken any opportunity to build up his hours.
IMHO, it's the system thats to blame, as far as I'm aware you don't hear of accountants, lawyers, surgeons etc. paying for their training, work experience, place of work etc.
Now I'll get off my soap box !

Last edited by Webby737; 10th Feb 2019 at 17:45. Reason: grammer
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 18:08
  #1264 (permalink)  
 
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Mr Ibbotson was 59.

Lawyers etc. have internships where they don't get paid to get experience.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 18:19
  #1265 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hipper View Post
Mr Ibbotson was 59.
Lawyers etc. have internships where they don't get paid to get experience.
Just so. But hardly an ideal time of life to start looking at CPL/ATPL etc.by racking up a few hours in borrowed aircraft.

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Old 10th Feb 2019, 19:11
  #1266 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Of course !, but how do you want to prove this if everyone involved ( still alive) says it was a private arrangement and no money was involved?
No money changed hands?

By all accounts this aircraft has been engaged in these activities for quite some time so an audit of the historic movements of money relating to its operation will reveal who is likely to have funded its fateful last flight.

I have no idea how much a Malibu costs to run but I am able to estimate that the fuel cost alone is some £150/hr. So what is the likelihood that the owner is a charitable organisation set up to provide free transportation to ridiculously wealthy footballers?

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Old 10th Feb 2019, 20:01
  #1267 (permalink)  
 
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complex confusion

Originally Posted by runway30 View Post

EASA regs allow the use of a foreign registered aircraft but FAA regs specify equally. In any event, you are not allowed to use a complex aircraft.


Why would any EASA cost sharing regulation apply when an aircraft of US registry is operated by a pilot with an FAA license? The only requirement, of which I'm aware, is that the holder of an FAA PPL must have received training in a complex aircraft and have that endorsed in their log book - ref 61.31 (d). Is there any reason to assume that the accident pilot did not have a complex endorsement in his log book? I doubt someone just gave him the keys of the Malibu if he had never flown a complex aircraft before.

Last edited by EXDAC; 10th Feb 2019 at 20:06. Reason: added "cost sharing" to "any EASA regulation"
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 20:20
  #1268 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EXDAC View Post
I doubt someone just gave him the keys of the Malibu if he had never flown a complex aircraft before.
I have been working in general aviation for nearly 30 years and I don't doubt anything anymore.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 20:40
  #1269 (permalink)  
 
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HIGH PROFILE and MONEY

There are two factors here that will ensure finding a 'responsibility trail '.When substantial amounts of money are concerned there will be parties that require that 'someone pays' and the legal 'chasers' will then get to deal with it in their own way.
Eventually someone will be held financially responsible which may THEN lead to a further legal battle with the relevant authorities.
With few actual witnesses or corroborated information then the process will be protracted and complicated.
As alluded before this could well be the equivalent of a 'Shoreham Showdown' for non scheduled quasi commercial operations, and ramifications for many operations including genuine clubs.
The CAA have as part of their mandate a responsibility to ensure safe passage for commercial passengers both scheduled and 'charter' but it is unreasonable to expect them to police the entire aviation spectrum with current resources, and with the latitude now being shown via EASA regs prosecutions are frequently only possible with substantial intelligence led information, and or input from other parties.
I hope this does not reduce the level of 'cause investigation' with regard to the recent loss of two UK pilots in Spain, because there may well be some useful lessons to be learnt from that.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 20:47
  #1270 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


EASA regs allow the use of a foreign registered aircraft but FAA regs specify equally. In any event, you are not allowed to use a complex aircraft.

European and National regulations permit cost sharing as follows:
  • The flight is a cost-shared flight by private individuals.
  • The direct costs of the flight must be shared between all of the occupants of the aircraft, including the pilot, up to a maximum of 6 persons.
  • The cost-sharing arrangements apply to any other-than complex motor-powered EASA aircraft and this includes aircraft registered outside of the EASA area but operated by an operator established or residing in the Community.
  • Cost-sharing is also permitted in non-EASA (Annex II of the Basic Regulation) aircraft registered in the UK.


Direct costs means the costs directly incurred in relation to a flight (e.g. fuel, airfield charges, rental fee for an aircraft). There can be no element of profit.



Annual costs which cannot be included in the cost sharing are the cost of keeping, maintaining, insuring and operating the aircraft over a period of one calendar year. There can be no element of profit.Additional guidance

  • In the case of a jointly-owned aircraft, the CAA considers the hourly rate, normally payable by a joint owner, for use of their aircraft to be a 'direct cost'.
  • Cost shared flights can be advertised, including the use of online 'flight sharing' platforms.
  • It is recommended that any advertising or promotion of cost-sharing flights makes it clear that they are private arrangements and not conducted in accordance with commercial air transport or, where appropriate, public transport rules.
  • Passengers should be made aware that the pilot may amend or cancel the flight for any reason, including at short notice.
  • The proportion of the costs that must be shared by the pilot is not specified in the regulations; however, the pilot must make a contribution to the direct costs of the flight that he is conducting.
  • The General Exemption (ORS4 No.1274) which permits cost-sharing flights for Annex II aircraft only applies to flights conducted within the London and Scottish Information Regions.
What`s that bit above about complex aircraft to which cost sharing does not apply.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 21:02
  #1271 (permalink)  
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Guys, a Malibu is not a "complex aircraft " in the EASA terminology meant here . Check the definition on google if you do not believe me.
And why focusing on cost sharing ?We have no proof that this was the case here, it could be just transporting someone for free. Period. This is allowed on an N registered aircraft, "family and friends" is the correct US phraseology I believe.

Last edited by ATC Watcher; 11th Feb 2019 at 06:57. Reason: correction ,( deleted FAA)
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 21:32
  #1272 (permalink)  
 
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The final outcome of this investigation will make an interesting read.
I can't help but feel sorry for Mr. Ibbotson, whilst I don't in any way condone his actions of deciding to fly that evening I can sort of understand why.
As others have mentioned, the hole was dug for him long before it got into that aircraft.
However, surely the root cause of this accident is the aviation industry, as an aircraft engineer I (thankfully) never had to go down the expensive, torturous route of trying to get a job flying a commercial aircraft.
Now, I don't know if Mr. Ibbotson was happy tootling around the skies with a PPL of if he had greater ambitions.
Assuming the latter, he would have (understandably) almost taken any opportunity to build up his hours.
IMHO, it's the system thats to blame, as far as I'm aware you don't hear of accountants, lawyers, surgeons etc. paying for their training, work experience, place of work etc.
Now I'll get off my soap box !
spot on...excellent post.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 21:33
  #1273 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
If you enforce this, there are easy way to go around this as hours are self declarative for PPL .
And even if you regulate that you have to bring a cerified log book when going to renew your medical , Pilots log books can be altered easily and even the highly regulated aircraft maintenance books can be "tuned in" to fit the purpose if you own the aircraft,
as to the name on a flight plan , not sure a data base on this is possible, but if it did and you wanted to avoid being flagged, just phone the plans or file on internet and write what you want on that field.
Do not underestimate the ingenuity of those that want to beat the system.
Spending a bit of time in Africa opens the mind to what is possible
These are all things that can easily be picked up from ramp checks.
If you are doctoring your logbook, then you are committing fraud. When you sign the little bit in the corner saying "true and correct."

Stricter regulation is not required. Just stricter and more proactive enforcement.

From my experience, you can get away with a lot in Africa and Indonesia by slipping a few bills with the logbook.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 21:44
  #1274 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Guys, a Malibu is not a "complex aircraft " in the EASA or FAA terminology meant here . Check the definition on google if you do not believe me.
And why focusing on cost sharing ?We have no proof that this was the case here, it could be just transporting someone for free. Period. This is allowed on an N registered aircraft, "family and friends" is the correct US phraseology I believe.
I am more than happy to take your word for it, but am bit puzzled that a high performance single capable of cruise at 25000` in pressurised comfort is not listed as complex. Nevertheless I do remember the introduction of HPA for the likes of such machines. Here is an article from the archives on the subject.

https://www.iaopa.eu/mediaServlet/st...PA_revised.pdf

If this remained a current requirement had DI undergone such training.


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Old 10th Feb 2019, 22:04
  #1275 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Ok , let me try this story . I have to say that I am not a lawyer nor an expert in UK rules, but I guess this story is universal .If not then I'll be happy to be corrected.

You own a car , I am a good friend of yours and ask you if I can borrow your car for the week end as mine is U/S, and later tell you my son will drive it up and sown to France to pick up someone . You say yes and give me the cars papers and the keys.
My son comes to me later and says, I cannot do the trip buy my friend John that you know very well, will do it ; you say Ok , not ideal, but OK...
X gets an accident because he drove well above the speed limit and kills someone.

If no money changed hands, it is only the driver who is responsible., not the owner of the car, me who arranged the trip, or,my son who was supposed to drive.
Not true. Any good lawyer would try to sue the owner, the garage that last fixed it, and anybody that had anything to do with it.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 22:38
  #1276 (permalink)  
 
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I have not seen the reason for the delay to the original 0900 flight plan.
A morning departure, I would have thought, would obviously be what Mr Ibbotson would have preferred, so the delay, I would not think, had been his decision
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 22:51
  #1277 (permalink)  
 
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Backtrack :
For a Flight from Nantes to Cardiff……… What is he doing at 5.000 ft in a plane that can go in the higher Flight levels avoiding any bad weather and ice in the first place?????

Being at 5.000, and being in ice, got him to request the lower altitude of 2.500. What happened afterwards is pure speculation.

But for a flight from Nantes to Cardiff? ? ? Why on planet Earth choose a low cruising altitude and ending up at 5.000 ft over the Channel????

Me in my Jodel 120 at 5.000 ft, that's an understandable cruise. But in that airframe? ? ? ? For that distance? ? ? In that weather? ? ?
Sorry, don't get it.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 22:53
  #1278 (permalink)  
 
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Guys, a Malibu is not a "complex aircraft " in the EASA or FAA terminology meant here .
ATCwatcher - A Malibu certainly is a complex aircraft under the FAA definition - "A complex airplane is defined by the United States Federal Aviation Administration as an aircraft that has all of the following: A retractable landing gear, a controllable-pitch propeller, and movable or adjustable flaps."

Edit - to add, I took the above definition from Wikipedia, but have just taken the time to look up the current definition on the FAA website, FAR 61.1
"Complex airplane means an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, including airplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller, including seaplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control."

And why focusing on cost sharing ?We have no proof that this was the case here, it could be just transporting someone for free. Period. This is allowed on an N registered aircraft, "family and friends" is the correct US phraseology I believe.
Sala certainly wasn't family, and I somewhat doubt they were "friends" in any normally accepted sense.

Last edited by Ant T; 10th Feb 2019 at 23:17.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 23:19
  #1279 (permalink)  
 
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 23:19
  #1280 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Silver_Light View Post
What is the general theory here as to where David Ibbotson's body is, as I believe there is a crowdfunding page set up to raise enough money to try and find him?

On other forums the fact that the AAIB have called off the search and trying to raise the wreck has caused an outcry on the grounds of inequality and that if it hadn't been Sala that they found, it would be ongoing.

His family don't want to give up but do they honestly think they will find him after all this time?

And one last final question- it's a difficult one I know... who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account?

With the prevailing wind and currents around that date, I would be searching the coastlines around Sark, North East Guernsey, Herm, Possibly Jethou and then the French coast Le Manche area from approximately Le Brisay area up to Clairfontaine. Unfortunately searching in the vicinity of the Nuclear Plant at Flamanville may prove problematic. Use a helicopter. Go slow and low and have maybe two spotters looking out as well as the pilots. Many of the Channel island coves and rocks around say Sark etc, are very difficult to see from the water or the land/cliffs. Only a slow methodical search by helicopter or drone would be suitable in my opinion. I know of one instance where a car going over the cliff in Guernsey could not be seen by land or sea, but a helicopter spotted it straight away.
Apart from doing that, you'd only be extending the search for the 'needle in the haystack'

Last edited by helimutt; 10th Feb 2019 at 23:32.
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