Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:20
  #1241 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 121
Originally Posted by deltafox44 View Post
The missing body would have been ejected from the plane at the impact.

That's a pretty assertive statement. How exactly do you know this to be fact?

Right Hand Thread is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:45
  #1242 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 179
Originally Posted by Silver_Light View Post
W
And one last final question- it's a difficult one I know... who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account?
That will be for the AAIB to decide.
Unfortunately, if what has been discussed here regarding Mr. Ibbotson's licence privileges turns out to be true, he'll most likely become the scapegoat.
It wouldn't surprise me if whoever arranged this trip gets off scott free.
Webby737 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:48
  #1243 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 559
Originally Posted by Silver_Light View Post
What is the general theory here as to where David Ibbotson's body is, as I believe there is a crowdfunding page set up to raise enough money to try and find him?

On other forums the fact that the AAIB have called off the search and trying to raise the wreck has caused an outcry on the grounds of inequality and that if it hadn't been Sala that they found, it would be ongoing.

His family don't want to give up but do they honestly think they will find him after all this time?

And one last final question- it's a difficult one I know... who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account?
Here are the various parties

Willie McKay: Father of the agent acting for Nantes Football Club contacted David Henderson to book/arrange the flight. Didnít specify an aircraft but wanted David Henderson as the pilot. Didnít charge Sala.

David Henderson: Commercial Pilot/Charter Broker/Aircraft Manager. Not known who he contacted to arrange the aircraft but arranged for Ibbotson to be the pilot. Has had very well publicised previous linkage to the aircraft. His credit card was used to pay for landing fees and fuel at Nantes.

Aircraft Owner/Operator: Not publicly identified but should have been aware of who was flying the aircraft and what it was doing.

David Ibbotson: Only known licence/rating PPL.

You will notice that there was a lot of arranging without anyone saying who was paid for what.
runway30 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:48
  #1244 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 70
Posts: 2,921
S-works :
Until we can make the pilots understand and learn to say NO we are on hiding to nowhere and blaming the regulator for lack of oversight is unfair......
Spot on !

what next :
But this accident is not only about the legal aspects of the flight itself. It is even more about flying outside one's license privileges and outside one's competence.
Absolutely. and I agree that we all ( certainly I) at one point or another in our flying life were more than tempted to cross the line to make " that flight " ..and only our ability (or not) to say No made the difference.

Siver light :
who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account?
If ,as all indications so far seem to say, , this was a private flight using a private aircraft , only the Pilot in Command is responsible, no-one else.
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:02
  #1245 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 70
Posts: 2,921
Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


Here are the various parties

Willie McKay: Father of the agent acting for Nantes Football Club contacted David Henderson to book/arrange the flight. Didnít specify an aircraft but wanted David Henderson as the pilot. Didnít charge Sala.

David Henderson: Commercial Pilot/Charter Broker/Aircraft Manager. Not known who he contacted to arrange the aircraft but arranged for Ibbotson to be the pilot. Has had very well publicised previous linkage to the aircraft. His credit card was used to pay for landing fees and fuel at Nantes.

Aircraft Owner/Operator: Not publicly identified but should have been aware of who was flying the aircraft and what it was doing.

David Ibbotson: Only known licence/rating PPL.

You will notice that there was a lot of arranging without anyone saying who was paid for what.
Ok , let me try this story . I have to say that I am not a lawyer nor an expert in UK rules, but I guess this story is universal .If not then I'll be happy to be corrected.

You own a car , I am a good friend of yours and ask you if I can borrow your car for the week end as mine is U/S, and later tell you my son will drive it up and sown to France to pick up someone . You say yes and give me the cars papers and the keys.
My son comes to me later and says, I cannot do the trip buy my friend John that you know very well, will do it ; you say Ok , not ideal, but OK...
X gets an accident because he drove well above the speed limit and kills someone.

If no money changed hands, it is only the driver who is responsible., not the owner of the car, me who arranged the trip, or,my son who was supposed to drive.
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:08
  #1246 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 559
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
S-works :
Spot on !

what next :
Absolutely. and I agree that we all ( certainly I) at one point or another in our flying life were more than tempted to cross the line to make " that flight " ..and only our ability (or not) to say No made the difference.

Siver light :
If ,as all indications so far seem to say, , this was a private flight using a private aircraft , only the Pilot in Command is responsible, no-one else.
If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then the illegal operator is also responsible.
runway30 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:13
  #1247 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 70
Posts: 2,921
Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then the illegal operator is also responsible.
Of course !, but how do you want to prove this if everyone involved ( still alive) says it was a private arrangement and no money was involved ? as I have read and heard so far.
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:26
  #1248 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 3
Well something did circulate in the media that David Henderson had a conversation on Facebook with David Ibbotson where Ibbotson stated that he was rusty.

Here you have a pilot making quite a worrying admission and another pilot who seems to not take a blind bit of notice to someone saying they are rusty?

Henderson should have acted immediately to find a suitable replacement?
Silver_Light is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:30
  #1249 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 559
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Of course !, but how do you want to prove this if everyone involved ( still alive) says it was a private arrangement and no money was involved ? as I have read and heard so far.
Because they have left an audit trail with landing fees, fuel and hotel being paid for. There is a narrative being pushed that private pilots can accept expenses for operating commercial flights. They cannot. They can split expenses equally with their passengers. On a US registered aircraft it is even worse, the pilot has to have common purpose with the passengers. This would have meant that Ibbotson also wished to see Salaís team mates and put Salaís dog into kennels. He very clearly did not.
runway30 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:34
  #1250 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 76
Posts: 6,035
My take is that certain parties dug a hole into which Mr Ibbotson fell, for a variety of possible reasons (over-confidence, over-enthusiasm or even much-needed financial incentive). Whilst it could be argued, quite reasonably, that those certain parties are culpable for digging said hole, it was only Mr Ibbotson who flew into it.

A sad story, with many lessons to be hopefully highlighted by AAIB in due course.
MPN11 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:45
  #1251 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 1,494
Just reading a telegraph article about transfers and tax and a thought comes to mind. It says traditionally football agent fees for representing a player are paid by the club but are a taxable benefit to the player. It says recently (some?) footballers have been Ďrepresenting themselvesí and agents act as Ďconsultantsí to the club. This meaning the fees become a business expense and not a benefit. (No benefit in kind, no 40% tax).

I wonder what HMRCís view of this will be when it comes to all the emails, texts, and public statements thatís have been made about who did what and for what benefit.
Daysleeper is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:49
  #1252 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 559
Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
My take is that certain parties dug a hole into which Mr Ibbotson fell, for a variety of possible reasons (over-confidence, over-enthusiasm or even much-needed financial incentive). Whilst it could be argued, quite reasonably, that those certain parties are culpable for digging said hole, it was only Mr Ibbotson who flew into it.

A sad story, with many lessons to be hopefully highlighted by AAIB in due course.
If I started a bus service in my city without an Operating Licence, hired a driver with an ordinary driving licence, the bus crashed and killed the passengers, I would expect a visit by the police within hours to secure evidence and consideration given to a charge of manslaughter by negligence. The person who gave away the tickets would not be able to run a PR campaign to convince everyone what a terrible tragedy it is that he has absolutely no part in.
runway30 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:53
  #1253 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 179
Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
My take is that certain parties dug a hole into which Mr Ibbotson fell, for a variety of possible reasons (over-confidence, over-enthusiasm or even much-needed financial incentive). Whilst it could be argued, quite reasonably, that those certain parties are culpable for digging said hole, it was only Mr Ibbotson who flew into it.

A sad story, with many lessons to be hopefully highlighted by AAIB in due course.
Very true,
I would also add that this arrangement (financial or otherwise), would have probably put some quite considerable pressure on Mr. Ibbotson to "get the job done".
This is the only reason I can think of why he would have even considered flying outside his licensing priviledges.
Webby737 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:53
  #1254 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 76
Posts: 6,035
runway30 ... I have no doubt that ‘certain parties’ will come under the spotlight in due course. But sadly Mr Ibbotson was the one who drove into the hole created for him.
Webby737 ... acknowledged.
MPN11 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:55
  #1255 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


Because they have left an audit trail with landing fees, fuel and hotel being paid for. There is a narrative being pushed that private pilots can accept expenses for operating commercial flights. They cannot. They can split expenses equally with their passengers. On a US registered aircraft it is even worse, the pilot has to have common purpose with the passengers. This would have meant that Ibbotson also wished to see Sala’s team mates and put Sala’s dog into kennels. He very clearly did not.


They cannot. They can split expenses equally with their passengers.
Can you explain what that is based on? On the basis that we are talking about the expenses of the flight, direct costs of making the flight can be shared between Pilot & Pax, no requirement for equality in that sharing under UK rules.
Warren Peace is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:57
  #1256 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 1,494
Originally Posted by Warren Peace View Post
They cannot. They can split expenses equally with their passengers.


Can you explain what that is based on? On the basis that we are talking about the expenses of the flight, direct costs of making the flight can be shared between Pilot & Pax, no requirement for equality in that sharing under UK rules.
Because it's an N reg aircraft and therefore must comply with the US rules.
Daysleeper is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 17:03
  #1257 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 70
Posts: 2,921
Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


Because they have left an audit trail with landing fees, fuel and hotel being paid for.
You have a good point there. But it would seem that he did pay himself those bills , just using someone else credit card. A lawyer might argue that he was merely borrowing a friend credit card and , just like cash being borrowed , and he intended to repay the owner of the credit card. Highly unlikely I grant you that and in addition in France at least using someone else credit card is illegal. But who is held responsible for using the card, the one that gave the card or the one using it ?

Anyway the AAIB will probably not going to investigate this as it falls outside their level of expertise and it is anyway outside the scope of ICAO Annex 13 , this is for the criminal investigation to do I would say, if there is a criminal investigation..
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 17:16
  #1258 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hotel Gypsy
Posts: 2,831
I think I said it before but.....

On the face of forum speculation, there doesn't appear to be a smoking gun. There is, however, a balance of probability that puts a number of people in the spotlight. I personally don't expect any criminal prosecutions for this event, but I fully expect a load of insurance company sponsored ambulance chasers in the civil courts. (Said as someone who occasionally does expert witness work for such occurrences).
Cows getting bigger is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 17:30
  #1259 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 31
If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then the illegal operator is also responsible.
If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then, de facto, it is a private flight. If the pilot only had a PPL how can it be anything else? He could pretend he had a CPL, or ATPL, or fly rockets for NASA - doesn't change that fact.
CBSITCB is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 17:31
  #1260 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 559
Originally Posted by Daysleeper View Post
Because it's an N reg aircraft and therefore must comply with the US rules.
EASA regs allow the use of a foreign registered aircraft but FAA regs specify equally. In any event, you are not allowed to use a complex aircraft.

European and National regulations permit cost sharing as follows:

  • The flight is a cost-shared flight by private individuals.
  • The direct costs of the flight must be shared between all of the occupants of the aircraft, including the pilot, up to a maximum of 6 persons.
  • The cost-sharing arrangements apply to any other-than complex motor-powered EASA aircraft and this includes aircraft registered outside of the EASA area but operated by an operator established or residing in the Community.
  • Cost-sharing is also permitted in non-EASA (Annex II of the Basic Regulation) aircraft registered in the UK.


Direct costs means the costs directly incurred in relation to a flight (e.g. fuel, airfield charges, rental fee for an aircraft). There can be no element of profit.



Annual costs which cannot be included in the cost sharing are the cost of keeping, maintaining, insuring and operating the aircraft over a period of one calendar year. There can be no element of profit.

Additional guidance

  • In the case of a jointly-owned aircraft, the CAA considers the hourly rate, normally payable by a joint owner, for use of their aircraft to be a 'direct cost'.
  • Cost shared flights can be advertised, including the use of online 'flight sharing' platforms.
  • It is recommended that any advertising or promotion of cost-sharing flights makes it clear that they are private arrangements and not conducted in accordance with commercial air transport or, where appropriate, public transport rules.
  • Passengers should be made aware that the pilot may amend or cancel the flight for any reason, including at short notice.
  • The proportion of the costs that must be shared by the pilot is not specified in the regulations; however, the pilot must make a contribution to the direct costs of the flight that he is conducting.
  • The General Exemption (ORS4 No.1274) which permits cost-sharing flights for Annex II aircraft only applies to flights conducted within the London and Scottish Information Regions.
runway30 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.