Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 10th Feb 2019, 11:35
  #1241 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 10,592
Originally Posted by funfly View Post
That's because our errors often result in death.
Because of that pilots, even GA pilots, have a responsibility, they are in control of a machine that can do serious damage if handled incorrectly.
In my opinion the majority of pilots do take this responsibility seriously.
A previous boss of mine had this on his wall, as true today as it was when written in the 1930s:

DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 11:51
  #1242 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London UK
Posts: 6,213
Originally Posted by S-Works View Post
The problem here is that the pilots doing the flying are the guys desperate to fly full stop and will take any opportunity.....
... and, of course, the only sources of decent paid income to fly, the airlines, saying they will not even consider you unless you have n hundred or n thousand of those expensive hours in your logbook.

Used to do weekend skydiving, we never paid our pilots but there was a queue of those offering their services, for the hours. Never occurred to actually charge them, but on reflection could have even done so.

WHBM is online now  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 12:02
  #1243 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 882
Originally Posted by S-Works View Post
The problem here is that the pilots doing the flying are the guys desperate to fly full stop and will take any opportunity. They will listen to the men behind the scenes taking the money saying that its all OK and that its a loop hole, a grey area, a private flight whatever the excuse is and go and do it.
Yes certainly, and I am not the one who is going to cast the first stone here. We all (or at least quite a few of us) have performed one or the other flight with questionable legality at some point during our careers. Like helping out somewhere without asking too many questions. Sometimes an opportunity is too nice to say NO right away. Like a weekend trip to France with all expenses covered for in a plane that I couldn't afford to rent myself. Who can resist a temptation like this, especially if everybody tells you it is "OK".

I have been ramp checked on countless occasions (mostly when performing legitimate commercial work, rarely when doing "private" flights - it really should be the other way round!) but only once ever have the passengers been asked: "Who has arranged this flight and who is paying for your ticket?". If that would be the first question asked by every ramp inspector then the kind of flying that we talk about here would dry out within a year.

But this accident is not only about the legal aspects of the flight itself. It is even more about flying outside one's license privileges and outside one's competence. And here I completely fail to understand how someone can accept an "it's OK". When I don't have a night rating I do not depart at night. No matter what people tell me. It can never be "OK". And there is not a single pilot out there who does not know that.
what next is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 12:14
  #1244 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 3
What is the general theory here as to where David Ibbotson's body is, as I believe there is a crowdfunding page set up to raise enough money to try and find him?

On other forums the fact that the AAIB have called off the search and trying to raise the wreck has caused an outcry on the grounds of inequality and that if it hadn't been Sala that they found, it would be ongoing.

His family don't want to give up but do they honestly think they will find him after all this time?

And one last final question- it's a difficult one I know... who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account?
Silver_Light is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 14:20
  #1245 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 114
Originally Posted by deltafox44 View Post
The missing body would have been ejected from the plane at the impact.

That's a pretty assertive statement. How exactly do you know this to be fact?

Right Hand Thread is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 14:45
  #1246 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 64
Originally Posted by Silver_Light View Post
W
And one last final question- it's a difficult one I know... who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account?
That will be for the AAIB to decide.
Unfortunately, if what has been discussed here regarding Mr. Ibbotson's licence privileges turns out to be true, he'll most likely become the scapegoat.
It wouldn't surprise me if whoever arranged this trip gets off scott free.
Webby737 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 14:48
  #1247 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 513
Originally Posted by Silver_Light View Post
What is the general theory here as to where David Ibbotson's body is, as I believe there is a crowdfunding page set up to raise enough money to try and find him?

On other forums the fact that the AAIB have called off the search and trying to raise the wreck has caused an outcry on the grounds of inequality and that if it hadn't been Sala that they found, it would be ongoing.

His family don't want to give up but do they honestly think they will find him after all this time?

And one last final question- it's a difficult one I know... who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account?
Here are the various parties

Willie McKay: Father of the agent acting for Nantes Football Club contacted David Henderson to book/arrange the flight. Didnít specify an aircraft but wanted David Henderson as the pilot. Didnít charge Sala.

David Henderson: Commercial Pilot/Charter Broker/Aircraft Manager. Not known who he contacted to arrange the aircraft but arranged for Ibbotson to be the pilot. Has had very well publicised previous linkage to the aircraft. His credit card was used to pay for landing fees and fuel at Nantes.

Aircraft Owner/Operator: Not publicly identified but should have been aware of who was flying the aircraft and what it was doing.

David Ibbotson: Only known licence/rating PPL.

You will notice that there was a lot of arranging without anyone saying who was paid for what.
runway30 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 14:48
  #1248 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 69
Posts: 2,602
S-works :
Until we can make the pilots understand and learn to say NO we are on hiding to nowhere and blaming the regulator for lack of oversight is unfair......
Spot on !

what next :
But this accident is not only about the legal aspects of the flight itself. It is even more about flying outside one's license privileges and outside one's competence.
Absolutely. and I agree that we all ( certainly I) at one point or another in our flying life were more than tempted to cross the line to make " that flight " ..and only our ability (or not) to say No made the difference.

Siver light :
who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account?
If ,as all indications so far seem to say, , this was a private flight using a private aircraft , only the Pilot in Command is responsible, no-one else.
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:02
  #1249 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 69
Posts: 2,602
Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


Here are the various parties

Willie McKay: Father of the agent acting for Nantes Football Club contacted David Henderson to book/arrange the flight. Didnít specify an aircraft but wanted David Henderson as the pilot. Didnít charge Sala.

David Henderson: Commercial Pilot/Charter Broker/Aircraft Manager. Not known who he contacted to arrange the aircraft but arranged for Ibbotson to be the pilot. Has had very well publicised previous linkage to the aircraft. His credit card was used to pay for landing fees and fuel at Nantes.

Aircraft Owner/Operator: Not publicly identified but should have been aware of who was flying the aircraft and what it was doing.

David Ibbotson: Only known licence/rating PPL.

You will notice that there was a lot of arranging without anyone saying who was paid for what.
Ok , let me try this story . I have to say that I am not a lawyer nor an expert in UK rules, but I guess this story is universal .If not then I'll be happy to be corrected.

You own a car , I am a good friend of yours and ask you if I can borrow your car for the week end as mine is U/S, and later tell you my son will drive it up and sown to France to pick up someone . You say yes and give me the cars papers and the keys.
My son comes to me later and says, I cannot do the trip buy my friend John that you know very well, will do it ; you say Ok , not ideal, but OK...
X gets an accident because he drove well above the speed limit and kills someone.

If no money changed hands, it is only the driver who is responsible., not the owner of the car, me who arranged the trip, or,my son who was supposed to drive.
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:08
  #1250 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 513
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
S-works :
Spot on !

what next :
Absolutely. and I agree that we all ( certainly I) at one point or another in our flying life were more than tempted to cross the line to make " that flight " ..and only our ability (or not) to say No made the difference.

Siver light :
If ,as all indications so far seem to say, , this was a private flight using a private aircraft , only the Pilot in Command is responsible, no-one else.
If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then the illegal operator is also responsible.
runway30 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:13
  #1251 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 69
Posts: 2,602
Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then the illegal operator is also responsible.
Of course !, but how do you want to prove this if everyone involved ( still alive) says it was a private arrangement and no money was involved ? as I have read and heard so far.
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:26
  #1252 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 3
Well something did circulate in the media that David Henderson had a conversation on Facebook with David Ibbotson where Ibbotson stated that he was rusty.

Here you have a pilot making quite a worrying admission and another pilot who seems to not take a blind bit of notice to someone saying they are rusty?

Henderson should have acted immediately to find a suitable replacement?
Silver_Light is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:30
  #1253 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 513
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Of course !, but how do you want to prove this if everyone involved ( still alive) says it was a private arrangement and no money was involved ? as I have read and heard so far.
Because they have left an audit trail with landing fees, fuel and hotel being paid for. There is a narrative being pushed that private pilots can accept expenses for operating commercial flights. They cannot. They can split expenses equally with their passengers. On a US registered aircraft it is even worse, the pilot has to have common purpose with the passengers. This would have meant that Ibbotson also wished to see Salaís team mates and put Salaís dog into kennels. He very clearly did not.
runway30 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:34
  #1254 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 74
Posts: 5,223
My take is that certain parties dug a hole into which Mr Ibbotson fell, for a variety of possible reasons (over-confidence, over-enthusiasm or even much-needed financial incentive). Whilst it could be argued, quite reasonably, that those certain parties are culpable for digging said hole, it was only Mr Ibbotson who flew into it.

A sad story, with many lessons to be hopefully highlighted by AAIB in due course.
MPN11 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:45
  #1255 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 1,493
Just reading a telegraph article about transfers and tax and a thought comes to mind. It says traditionally football agent fees for representing a player are paid by the club but are a taxable benefit to the player. It says recently (some?) footballers have been Ďrepresenting themselvesí and agents act as Ďconsultantsí to the club. This meaning the fees become a business expense and not a benefit. (No benefit in kind, no 40% tax).

I wonder what HMRCís view of this will be when it comes to all the emails, texts, and public statements thatís have been made about who did what and for what benefit.
Daysleeper is online now  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:49
  #1256 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 513
Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
My take is that certain parties dug a hole into which Mr Ibbotson fell, for a variety of possible reasons (over-confidence, over-enthusiasm or even much-needed financial incentive). Whilst it could be argued, quite reasonably, that those certain parties are culpable for digging said hole, it was only Mr Ibbotson who flew into it.

A sad story, with many lessons to be hopefully highlighted by AAIB in due course.
If I started a bus service in my city without an Operating Licence, hired a driver with an ordinary driving licence, the bus crashed and killed the passengers, I would expect a visit by the police within hours to secure evidence and consideration given to a charge of manslaughter by negligence. The person who gave away the tickets would not be able to run a PR campaign to convince everyone what a terrible tragedy it is that he has absolutely no part in.
runway30 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:53
  #1257 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 64
Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
My take is that certain parties dug a hole into which Mr Ibbotson fell, for a variety of possible reasons (over-confidence, over-enthusiasm or even much-needed financial incentive). Whilst it could be argued, quite reasonably, that those certain parties are culpable for digging said hole, it was only Mr Ibbotson who flew into it.

A sad story, with many lessons to be hopefully highlighted by AAIB in due course.
Very true,
I would also add that this arrangement (financial or otherwise), would have probably put some quite considerable pressure on Mr. Ibbotson to "get the job done".
This is the only reason I can think of why he would have even considered flying outside his licensing priviledges.
Webby737 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:53
  #1258 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 74
Posts: 5,223
runway30 ... I have no doubt that ‘certain parties’ will come under the spotlight in due course. But sadly Mr Ibbotson was the one who drove into the hole created for him.
Webby737 ... acknowledged.
MPN11 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:55
  #1259 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


Because they have left an audit trail with landing fees, fuel and hotel being paid for. There is a narrative being pushed that private pilots can accept expenses for operating commercial flights. They cannot. They can split expenses equally with their passengers. On a US registered aircraft it is even worse, the pilot has to have common purpose with the passengers. This would have meant that Ibbotson also wished to see Sala’s team mates and put Sala’s dog into kennels. He very clearly did not.


They cannot. They can split expenses equally with their passengers.
Can you explain what that is based on? On the basis that we are talking about the expenses of the flight, direct costs of making the flight can be shared between Pilot & Pax, no requirement for equality in that sharing under UK rules.
Warren Peace is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 15:57
  #1260 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 1,493
Originally Posted by Warren Peace View Post
They cannot. They can split expenses equally with their passengers.


Can you explain what that is based on? On the basis that we are talking about the expenses of the flight, direct costs of making the flight can be shared between Pilot & Pax, no requirement for equality in that sharing under UK rules.
Because it's an N reg aircraft and therefore must comply with the US rules.
Daysleeper is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.