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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 8th Feb 2019, 19:36
  #1181 (permalink)  
 
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Gentlemen [as most of you will be] ... a serious question.

Mr. Ibbotson's Licence and Log book presumably travelled with him, in his 'Nav Bag'? As did, probably, his cellphone. The details therein are thus critical to any enquiry. Are they stored elsewhere, on a database, or do those documents form the only record of licensing and currency? Would the attempted recovery of said bag not be significant, or am I overthinking a subject about which i confess I know nothing?
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 19:49
  #1182 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
Gentlemen [as most of you will be] ... a serious question.

Mr. Ibbotson's Licence and Log book presumably travelled with him, in his 'Nav Bag'? As did, probably, his cellphone. The details therein are thus critical to any enquiry. Are they stored elsewhere, on a database, or do those documents form the only record of licensing and currency? Would the attempted recovery of said bag not be significant, or am I overthinking a subject about which i confess I know nothing?
There is no legal requirement for a pilot to carry a personal log book in the aircraft, indeed it would obviously be counterproductive if lost.
The requirement is to complete one's log book "in a reasonable time".
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 20:12
  #1183 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
There is no legal requirement for a pilot to carry a personal log book in the aircraft, indeed it would obviously be counterproductive if lost.
The requirement is to complete one's log book "in a reasonable time".
Sadly for him, time is no longer relevant. Thus presumably AAIB will seek to find it and determine currency.

And his 'qualifications' ... Do pilots carry their Licence with them? Are the details on a database somewhere? My long-expired PPL has a stamp for "Group A: Landplanes" (Ministry of Aviation!) and my Logbook just has "Piper Colt, Day only". I doubt any of that is electronically stored, dating as it does from 1963!

I'm just curious about the missing bits of the equation, as an onlooker.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 20:31
  #1184 (permalink)  

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Sadly for him, time is no longer relevant. Thus presumably AAIB will seek to find it and determine currency.
Yes, obviously not - but you asked if it would be carried in the aircraft. It should be available elsewhere.

And his 'qualifications' ... Do pilots carry their Licence with them?
Pilots are required to carry their licence with them.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 20:44
  #1185 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks.

So his Licence, with 'endorsements', is presumably underwater. Unlike my PPL, am I right in assuming that they are therefore on databases somewhere? i won't go technical on FAA/CAA, just ... they do exist above the surface of the water. Apologies if that sounds cynical, my knowledge of the subject is of course close to Zero, just wondering how the 'legality' angle gets unravelled.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 20:55
  #1186 (permalink)  
 
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Yes the AAIB will search for his Log Book to determine experience. Unfortunately some Log Books are not found or the pilot has not filled it in for some time ( often years). In those cases the AAIB look for other ways to calculate experience ( employers records for instance) or sometimes they have to say in the final report ...unknown. Another good source is the pilots medical renewal forms which require hours to be filled in.

Licences have to be carried so are often lost in the accident. However holders of an AOC are required to keep records so the data is available. For
Private Pilots all that was required for revalidation in the past was a signature in the licence, but nowadays returns are required by the CAA.

Documents which are required to be carried are also sometimes lost, e.g C of A, C of R etc. However, all this data is held by the CAA/FAA and maintenance organisations, so can be easily retrieved.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 20:59
  #1187 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks again ... my interest, if I can use that term, was how AAIB might be able to determine licensing and currency aspects. I shall withdraw and leave the rest to experts.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 21:00
  #1188 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
So his Licence, with 'endorsements', is presumably underwater.
The original document may be lost. But the examiner/instructor who does the bi-annual flight review for the PPL (required for EASA as well as FAA) needs to submit the relevant paperwork to the authorities. This includes the number of hours flown. So something should be on file from which the currency of a pilot can be determined. Maybe not his compliance with the 30-day-rule when his logbook is lost.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 21:11
  #1189 (permalink)  
 
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I am slightly confused of the obsession of if it's endorsed Day on the PPL license. As unless it's endorsed with a Night Rating, it's clearly specified in Air Law what "time" you can operate with a PPL license. And it's all in reference to Sunrise and Sunset times, no endorsement to specify DAY ONLY is required on your PPL license, as you should know this from Air Law.

IMC rating is a national UK rating, and would not be allowed to operate under on a N reg aircraft, or in French airspace.

What made D.I make that flight at night, which he was aware of that he was not allowed to make, due to the fact that he did not have the license qualifications to do it, and I am not talking about the Commercial pressure of a bogus cost sharing scheme.

I am more interested in what external pressure was put on the pilot, and by who. No disrespect to the pilot D.I, but he was caught up in a very bad situation, his phone records, and phone records of implicated parties would be a very interesting read indeed.

There is a young man dead, due to external pressure and cowboy charter business. Whatever happen in the final minutes of the flight, Sala should never have been on board that aircraft.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 21:23
  #1190 (permalink)  
 
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Looks like it's going to be a multi million court case in this one. Suspect more poo than the shoremam court case after the piece on radio 4 is anything to go by.

Three football clubs 15 million and no insurance. A pilot thats dead with next to zero net worth... And that's not including the poor sods family.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 21:44
  #1191 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
Looks like it's going to be a multi million court case in this one. Suspect more poo than the shoremam court case after the piece on radio 4 is anything to go by.

Three football clubs 15 million and no insurance. A pilot thats dead with next to zero net worth... And that's not including the poor sods family.
Add agents, who will be claiming without shame, even though some of them are responsible for providing Sala, their commodity an unsafe/illegal method of transport.

I actually think all parts should walk away from any monetary claim, these are exceptional circumstances, a young man is dead, clubs and agents does not come out good in this for claiming money.
The agents should donate all their money to the families if they have some shame and decency. However I doubt these greedy f...s will do that. McKay deserves his day in court.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 21:44
  #1192 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 2unlimited View Post
No disrespect to the pilot D.I, but he was caught up in a very bad situation,
I keep reading that here, but in what situation was he "caught"? If he indeed held a private pilot licence for daylight VFR flying then any request to carry paying passengers at night in poor weather can only be answered with a single word: No. Anything else is not "being caught" but means actively being part of it.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 21:59
  #1193 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
I keep reading that here, but in what situation was he "caught"? If he indeed held a private pilot licence for daylight VFR flying then any request to carry paying passengers at night in poor weather can only be answered with a single word: No. Anything else is not "being caught" but means actively being part of it.
Yes this is partly correct, however this is the exact worry about PPL's "cost sharing", as they don't have the commercial experience or backing of SOP's to follow.
As I have mentioned before, the pressure would have been on both the PPL and the Football player to arrive on time for his first day at his new job.
Who decided to delay the flight to the night? And why? Sure D.I should have refused to make the flight, however it seems he was not worried to operate outside his legal license privileges.

But McKay as his agent had an obligation to have the player at the club on time for his first day.
The whole debate on this issue, is that PPLs are doing this, and will be exposed of external pressure to get the "job done", as it's expected by all parts.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 22:05
  #1194 (permalink)  
 
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The biennial record which the CAA hold might be inaccurate. My paper record, in my licence folder, is complete, all revalidations by experience.
Enquiries to the CAA with respect to my English proficiency lead to the information that some years revalidations were not on record.
If I had crashed, and the licence was burned or lost at sea, their records would have shown I was neither legal nor current.
The examiner who signed my form that year would not be known to the CAA, and might not see the accident report, so wouldn't respond.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 22:59
  #1195 (permalink)  
 
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Is it not time that this bolleaux is brought to an end.? Ridiculous comments regarding diving limits by people who obviously don't have a clue and similarly wild speculation on aviation matters. It's obvious that questions are going to be asked but at least have some respect and wait for the official conclusion.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 23:54
  #1196 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clareprop View Post
Is it not time that this bolleaux is brought to an end.? Ridiculous comments regarding diving limits by people who obviously don't have a clue and similarly wild speculation on aviation matters. It's obvious that questions are going to be asked but at least have some respect and wait for the official conclusion.
Its a rumours forum - be awfully quiet if no one posted anything until the official conclusion was drawn
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 00:52
  #1197 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clareprop View Post
Is it not time that this bolleaux is brought to an end.? Ridiculous comments regarding diving limits by people who obviously don't have a clue and similarly wild speculation on aviation matters. It's obvious that questions are going to be asked but at least have some respect and wait for the official conclusion.
A "BOLLEAUX" ? Whatever is meant by that, it is not what the majority of those who participate on PPRuNe. Most of us feel and deep sense of concern when a tragic incident occurs in aviation. Many of us wish to learn from it and try and do our best to avoid our human inadequecies, shortcomings and failings. We try to pool and share our knowledge and understanding in this field of human endeavour. Yes we do speculate, but even in that there is some value to others. There could be much error in what has been said, but at least we learn what is incorrect from those who know better. The whole world is shocked by this tragic loss. We as pilots once, pilots now and pilots in the future, are certainly most concerned over the impact it has and will have in the future and our role and interest in aviation. Those are not "bolleaux`s.

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Old 9th Feb 2019, 03:28
  #1198 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clareprop View Post
Is it not time that this bolleaux is brought to an end.? Ridiculous comments regarding diving limits by people who obviously don't have a clue and similarly wild speculation on aviation matters. It's obvious that questions are going to be asked but at least have some respect and wait for the official conclusion.
Clare, my apologies for not agreeing with you but there are two topics of interest to me now.

1) The investigation, not the diligent safety investigation being undertaken by the AAIB, but what I assumed would be a concurrent investigation undertaken by the police. An investigation must now be undertaken because there will be an inquest but it seems that justice would have been well served by a swift operation to secure evidence or do the police assume that there are only transgressions of the ANO and can wait until the AAIB have completed their work?
2) I am interested in how many pilots consider the value of passengers for 3rd party liability before agreeing to transport them. There are several football companies who are looking for recompense, as well as people associated with the person who actually booked the flight as well as the family of the passenger. The trustees from Southern Aircraft Consultancy will have protected themselves by way of an Operator Agreement with somebody and no doubt have already passed the name of that person/organisation to the FAA. If the Insurance Policy of the Operator is in any way insufficient, then the Operator/estate of the pilot could be on the wrong end of a multi million pound legal action. Could the estate of the pilot be protected if an actual/implied contract of employment exists with the Operator?
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 06:47
  #1199 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Maoraigh1 View Post
The biennial record which the CAA hold might be inaccurate. My paper record, in my licence folder, is complete, all revalidations by experience.
Enquiries to the CAA with respect to my English proficiency lead to the information that some years revalidations were not on record.
If I had crashed, and the licence was burned or lost at sea, their records would have shown I was neither legal nor current.
The examiner who signed my form that year would not be known to the CAA, and might not see the accident report, so wouldn't respond.
just to add you would be well advised to keep a record of logs, licences and revalidations etc in a secure place where your next of kin know about it so that they can give it to the insurance company. Otherwise the question of your legality is another excuse to use to delay or deny any claim.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 08:29
  #1200 (permalink)  
 
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Well the BBC must be reading this thread

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47172509
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