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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 20th Aug 2019, 14:32
  #2021 (permalink)  
 
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snd - I do agree with your post and can feel your frustation but the fact remains with the level of CO in Sala's bloodstream both were almost certainly unconcious when the plane hit the water. Had the pilot been a 20,000 hour ATPL the end result would be the same (but we wouldnt know the cause as the plane would have more likely turfed in from fl150 and no bodies would have been found.) This doesnt change the legality of the flight but the cause of the crash was not down to a lack of qualifications.
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 16:56
  #2022 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Camargue View Post
snd - I do agree with your post and can feel your frustation but the fact remains with the level of CO in Sala's bloodstream both were almost certainly unconcious when the plane hit the water. Had the pilot been a 20,000 hour ATPL the end result would be the same (but we wouldnt know the cause as the plane would have more likely turfed in from fl150 and no bodies would have been found.) This doesnt change the legality of the flight but the cause of the crash was not down to a lack of qualifications.
Had this been a private owner on a private flight I might be inclined to agree.

However this was a grey charter where the passenger had expressed misgivings about the state of the aircraft.

He was an innocent party in this chain of events.

The owner of a maintenance company has also remarked it needed a lot done to bring it up to a safe standard.

Very few of us ever poke our noses in to other peoples business and instead turn a blind eye to something that may well be illegal.

From what I understand the owner of the Malibu had assigned management and charter of the aircraft to DH.

He in turn booked Ibbotson to fly the fatal flight.

However the owner must take responsibility for the safety of those who flew in it.

There are both criminal and civil actions on the horizon.

One thing for sure is any insurance policy will be invalid.







Last edited by Mike Flynn; 20th Aug 2019 at 17:07.
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 17:45
  #2023 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Camargue View Post
snd - I do agree with your post and can feel your frustation but the fact remains with the level of CO in Sala's bloodstream both were almost certainly unconcious when the plane hit the water. Had the pilot been a 20,000 hour ATPL the end result would be the same (but we wouldnt know the cause as the plane would have more likely turfed in from fl150 and no bodies would have been found.) This doesnt change the legality of the flight but the cause of the crash was not down to a lack of qualifications.
But would a 20.000 ATPL fly an aircraft of that type with no CO sensor of any kind? Flown many hours in light singles but never without a CO sensor
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 18:57
  #2024 (permalink)  
 
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Further to my original post about what a PPL student should do, on a lesson today I noticed the aircraft is fitted with a stick on CO detector (changing colour dot type). I think this is probably best, as you may not hear an alarm.

I will certainly be checking it more frequently going forward......
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 20:02
  #2025 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Camargue View Post
snd - I do agree with your post and can feel your frustation but the fact remains with the level of CO in Sala's bloodstream both were almost certainly unconcious when the plane hit the water. Had the pilot been a 20,000 hour ATPL the end result would be the same (but we wouldnt know the cause as the plane would have more likely turfed in from fl150 and no bodies would have been found.) This doesnt change the legality of the flight but the cause of the crash was not down to a lack of qualifications.
But, does it make the outbound flight any more legal? Although CO has apparently been found in Sala DI was way outside his qualifications for both outbound and inbound flights. CO poisoning is irrelevant. The flight was illegal and Sala died as a result of a criminal act. From available transcripts, pilot qualifications and aircraft registry the flight was illegal. Iíd lay good odds that DI didnít know the return details until too late. He got airborne knowing a) the flight was illegal, b) he wasnít qualified to fly that aircraft in those conditions at night. He went, and in doing so killed his passenger. CO poisoning was irrelevant to the legality of the flight and his knowledge of it. CO poisoning may have been an added extra to the already potentially lethal cocktail of bad weather, unqualified pilot and a lot of pressure. CO poisoning is no excuse for his willingness to break the law, it may just have been the final straw.

Iíd be interested to know just how CO poisoning could have been detected, at the reported levels in a body that had been under seawater for so many days.

DI had no excuse, CO poisoning is no excuse. And the price was horrendous.

SND
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 22:01
  #2026 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post
The owner of a maintenance company has also remarked it needed a lot done to bring it up to a safe standard
Whilst thereís plenty of circumstantial evidence that rules were being broken on the accident flight and potentially others, there's no evidence that Iíve seen in the public domain, that indicates that the required maintenance had not been completed at the time of the final flight. If there is perhaps you could provide a link to the source.
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 00:05
  #2027 (permalink)  
 
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Given the mention of the state of maintenance, was the aircraft even airworthy? Local organisation refused to release an aircraft (100 hourly) when owner pressed not to have certain work done. Owner relented, and paid.
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 06:16
  #2028 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia View Post
Iíd be interested to know just how CO poisoning could have been detected, at the reported levels in a body that had been under seawater for so many days.
CO poisoning produces permanent damage to red blood cells - it's a signature which remains and can be identified even in a long-deceased body and it gives fairly precise values of the scale. CO poisoning is not just a matter of lack of oxygen (as happens with CO2) - it is actually a poisonous gas. CO "locks" the haemoglobin in the blood such that it can't take oxygen even when it's present. If you suffer CO poisoning beyond a certain level even getting you away from the CO and giving you 100% oxygen via a mask won't save you - you will die unless you are given a rapid and massive transfusion of red blood cells (which is rarely possible).

So the detection of CO poisoning in "a body that had been under seawater for so many days" is not in any way remarkable or strange.

PDR
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 06:37
  #2029 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
CO poisoning produces permanent damage to red blood cells - it's a signature which remains and can be identified even in a long-deceased body and it gives fairly precise values of the scale. CO poisoning is not just a matter of lack of oxygen (as happens with CO2) - it is actually a poisonous gas. CO "locks" the haemoglobin in the blood such that it can't take oxygen even when it's present. If you suffer CO poisoning beyond a certain level even getting you away from the CO and giving you 100% oxygen via a mask won't save you - you will die unless you are given a rapid and massive transfusion of red blood cells (which is rarely possible).

So the detection of CO poisoning in "a body that had been under seawater for so many days" is not in any way remarkable or strange.

PDR
However the time lapse from recovery (of victim) to discovery (of toxicity) does seem both remarkable and strange I.M.H.O.
Be lucky
David
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 07:14
  #2030 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The AvgasDinosaur View Post

However the time lapse from recovery (of victim) to discovery (of toxicity) does seem both remarkable and strange I.M.H.O.
Be lucky
David
I wondered about that one...........
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 07:42
  #2031 (permalink)  
 
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I doubt the delay was to the tests, just to the publication of the AAIB Special Bulletin that contained the results.
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 08:10
  #2032 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Given the mention of the state of maintenance, was the aircraft even airworthy?.
Is that the bloke who saw the aircraft when it needed maintenance several months before the accident, doesnít know if any faults were rectified by another agency, and says if they had been rectified, (which he doesnít know), Ďeverything would be fine and dandyí?

The piece regarding your local aircraft is irrelevant.
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 08:11
  #2033 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
CO poisoning produces permanent damage to red blood cells - it's a signature which remains and can be identified even in a long-deceased body and it gives fairly precise values of the scale. CO poisoning is not just a matter of lack of oxygen (as happens with CO2) - it is actually a poisonous gas. CO "locks" the haemoglobin in the blood such that it can't take oxygen even when it's present. If you suffer CO poisoning beyond a certain level even getting you away from the CO and giving you 100% oxygen via a mask won't save you - you will die unless you are given a rapid and massive transfusion of red blood cells (which is rarely possible).

So the detection of CO poisoning in "a body that had been under seawater for so many days" is not in any way remarkable or strange.

PDR
Thanks PDR. Some googling on my part comes up with similar explanations. Apparently CO suicides often change their minds, but then find its too late to escape from the stuff.

SND
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 10:40
  #2034 (permalink)  
 
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The most tragic cases of CO poisoniung usually come from campers in the UK. When camping a popular dining solution is to just fire up a disposable barbeque - it's easy, gives a nice charcoaled flavour and involves minimal washing up. But on a typical British camping holiday there is a very high probability that it will be either:

1. Hissing down with rain
2. Blowing a gale
3. Hissing down with horizontal rain

Sadly some decide to use the babeque anyway. To do this they might tip up the sides of their awning/dining-shelter or even just bring the whole thing inside the tent - I've even heard people suggest that this allows the baberque to warm up the tent a bit. The unfortunate fact is that the charcoal burns underneath a layer of ash (the white bit) which resticts the flow of oxygen such that the almost pure carbon produces lots of carbon monoxide (colourless, odourless and deadly). Even in a drafty dining shelter the CO concentration can reach lethal levels very quickly - if the used disposable barbeque is left to burn out inside a tent you will have created a remarkably cost-effective gas chamber for ad hoc executions. So if nothing else, I would ask readers to take away the thought that barbeques are only ever outdoor things - only use in very well ventilated areas no matter hoiw inconvenient that wind may be!

PDR
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 11:25
  #2035 (permalink)  
 
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Carbon monoxide poisoning is an extremely rare cause of aircraft fatalities in the UK.

This aircraft had already flown for over an hour so what could have gone wrong?
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 11:35
  #2036 (permalink)  
 
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Any number of things - the two that immediately leap to mind being either a piece of corrosion in a heat-exchanger finally burning through to give a hole, or simply that the late night return flight was through cooler air so the cabin heather was turned up to a higher level (increating the amount of CO being pushed into the cabin). It's equally possible that the CO leak was present from the moment the engine started, but it too half an hour to build up to a fatal concentration.

The whole "it worked yesteday so it is strange that it broke today" argumnent that we hear so often is utterly inappropriate for complex systems - it assumes dice have a memory, which they don't (I checked).

PDR
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 13:53
  #2037 (permalink)  
 
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Given that the pilot responded to ATC calls immediately prior to the crash, the claimed potentially fatal levels of carbon monoxide found in the blood may not be quite what they appear from a simple reading of the analytical report. The pilot being considerably less fit and much older than the passenger should have succumbed much more readily to the effects of carbon monoxide poisoning. Biological processes are capable of producing high levels of alcohol and other substances in the blood after death.

There can be absolutely no doubt that carbon monoxide poisoning may have been a contributory factor in this incident, but the primary factors are still weather, an unqualified pilot, and an aged aircraft that had apparently not been maintained to the highest standards. Everything was being done on the cheap in order to save money. There's your cause!
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 15:06
  #2038 (permalink)  
 
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There is evidence that sedentary smokers are less prone to hypoxia than fit non smokers.

I have no idea if that maps to CO poisoning, but I suppose it's at least hypothetically possible.

G
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 18:14
  #2039 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post
Carbon monoxide poisoning is an extremely rare cause of aircraft fatalities in the UK.

This aircraft had already flown for over an hour so what could have gone wrong?
Icing, alt air selection, dam burst, all with a maybe of course. As is all too well known, it is rarely one single factor, it is when more than one that conspire to combine to form the chain for an accident.

The interesting one in this incident is yet again the one that relates to human factors. By that is meant what was it that placed this particular pilot and his passenger in that aircraft for that fateful flight.
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 18:39
  #2040 (permalink)  
 
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M.O.T

Originally Posted by megan View Post
Given the mention of the state of maintenance, was the aircraft even airworthy? Local organisation refused to release an aircraft (100 hourly) when owner pressed not to have certain work done. Owner relented, and paid.
My first post as I have had an interest in this from the start and sat and watched what people have been saying.

Maintenance has started to become an issue for obvious reasons.

My understanding is that from what Mr Penney has stated is that the aircraft was due an MOT at the end of the year, so a good guess is December.

So other flights in the said aircraft could have taken place before the fatal night.
i suppose my thoughts are: could this of have been an in flight issue not caused by bad maintenance if the aircraft had clocked up a fair few miles since its MOT. This can certainly happen in a Car even after a few weeks of it passing its Test. failure of parts
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