Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

[runway30]

Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia

CO poisoning is almost impossible to detect until it’s nearly too late. However, there is no excuse, CO poisoning or not for an unqualified pilot carrying out this flight. Ibbotson knew he was unqualified, Henderson I suspect knew he was unqualified and an innocent life was lost.

I’ve spent a career in CAT operations watching cowboys taking the piss because they do it cheap, no one stops them and those of us with all the checks and balances in place lose business to these cheating s***s who laugh and lie their way out.

While I feel sorry for the loss and publicity Ibbotson’s family have suffered I hope his death may finally mean someone grasps illegal CAT and the operators by the throat and squeezes, hard.

Pilots are advertising helicopter sight seeing flights along the Thames, with 70 hours on their PPL and not knowing that for CAT a non-standard flight plan is required. It’s 20 years since I last flew a sightseeing flight, but I know what they mean to the real operators,

At a UK Airport last week I met an elderly lady whose son had paid for her to use the aircraft and pilot he hires regularly to take the mother to meet a friend. Cocky bloke in his 4 seat single and his PPL charging for a charter. Fancy putting your mum’s safety in the hands of a couple of hundred hour PPL in iffy weather?

Ignore CO poisoning, it had no more relevance than a mild cold in this case. The flight was illegal and Sala was killed by people prepared to take a risk for a few quid, and from information now coming out about airworthiness, or lack of It sounds worse than at first thought.

I make no apology for my anger, I have to work my arse off to keep the staff employed and the aircraft paid for and then answer questions about how Sala died and are we safe. My passengers are, at a price, I suspect a lot of passengers in the UK now aren’t.

I still await Grant Shapps response to how his “freeing up GA” has enhanced safety.

SND

SND, I agree with everything you say.

[Mike Flynn]

I second that SND

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Mike & Runway30;

thank you both, and Runway30 if I seemed aggressive it definitely was not meant against you��

SND

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Originally Posted by Mike Flynn

The reason for the difficult exam (the knowledge) London black cab drivers have to pass is they play by a clearly defined set of rules.

On the other side of the fence are the minicabs and Ubers who are the Arthur Daleys of the taxi world.

Few checks or regulation means you get what you pay for ...

I don't. I don't use London taxis. I'm not rich enough, and I have difficulty imagining who might be able to afford them (when not on expenses).

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Originally Posted by Mike Flynn

Agreed A and C.

The reason for the difficult exam (the knowledge) London black cab drivers have to pass is they play by a clearly defined set of rules.

On the other side of the fence are the minicabs and Ubers who are the Arthur Daleys of the taxi world.

Few checks or regulation means you get what you pay for but these people sadly undermine the legal operators business model.

If I was running an AOC operation I would be extremely angry to see cowboy pilots flying N reg aircraft on illegal charters that cannot be stopped by the CAA?

I can’t help but wonder why, if all these ‘Air-Grey’ charters are being flown visibly from UK airfields the resident AOC holders have not done so.
Or have they reported them and been ignored ? Several correspondents on here seem to be well aware of what’s been going on.
Has it been reported and ignored or has it just been ignored?
Be lucky
David

[Jonzarno]

cowboy pilots flying N reg aircraft on illegal charters that cannot be stopped by the CAA?

But they CAN be stopped by the CAA.

The fact that an aircraft is on the N register does not exempt the pilot from the law or regulations of the country in which it is used.

As regards the pilot it is the same. The rules applying to my FAA licence make that crystal clear: in fact it says that where the UK regulations differ from the FAA regs, the more restrictive regs apply.

All that said: I agree entirely that those arranging or flying the type of illegal charter that this flight appears to have been should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and have exemplary penalties imposed whatever reg aircraft they use.

[meleagertoo]

Unfortunately the CAA is a rubber-toothed poodle when it comes to investigating, let alone prosecuting illegal ops, even when the prepetrators are AOC operators who already have Flight Ops Inspections and are thus readily investigable.

I personally know of one UK AOC holder that was chartering a King Air on a private C of A in Africa while advertising it as fully UK licenced and insured and their crew included a third 'ghost' pilot whose name was logged for all the (great many) hours over the legal maxima. One of their pilots was renowned for performing aerobatics to wow his female passengers. Indeed he was almost famous for it in the community they worked for.
This was reported but the CAA decided it was 'too difficult and too far away to investigate'.

I also had dealings with a UK scheduled airline that didn't allow Captains to write defects in tbe tech log, instead these were listed on the back of your met paperwork and left for the next guy to read, 3 pages of them on some of the fleet. Not one of the fleet of 5-6 aircraft was fit to fly in airways or in IMC due to defective deicing or radar and on some aircraft both. This could have been proven with 10 minutes work by a Flt Ops Inspector, but when reported nothing whatsoever was done despite their admitting it wasn't the first report of such chicanery they'd had filed. 10 years later I was still hearing of exactly the same going on in that company from its ex pilots. They even managed to have a wheels up landing with pax on a scheduled flight and never filed an accident report. And the CAA never did a thing despite that being reported too!

Good luck hoping they'll do anything to stop illegal charters by PPLs or on the N reg. Pigs will fly first.

[Camargue]

snd - I do agree with your post and can feel your frustation but the fact remains with the level of CO in Sala's bloodstream both were almost certainly unconcious when the plane hit the water. Had the pilot been a 20,000 hour ATPL the end result would be the same (but we wouldnt know the cause as the plane would have more likely turfed in from fl150 and no bodies would have been found.) This doesnt change the legality of the flight but the cause of the crash was not down to a lack of qualifications.

[Mike Flynn]

Originally Posted by Camargue

snd - I do agree with your post and can feel your frustation but the fact remains with the level of CO in Sala's bloodstream both were almost certainly unconcious when the plane hit the water. Had the pilot been a 20,000 hour ATPL the end result would be the same (but we wouldnt know the cause as the plane would have more likely turfed in from fl150 and no bodies would have been found.) This doesnt change the legality of the flight but the cause of the crash was not down to a lack of qualifications.

Had this been a private owner on a private flight I might be inclined to agree.

However this was a grey charter where the passenger had expressed misgivings about the state of the aircraft.

He was an innocent party in this chain of events.

The owner of a maintenance company has also remarked it needed a lot done to bring it up to a safe standard.

Very few of us ever poke our noses in to other peoples business and instead turn a blind eye to something that may well be illegal.

From what I understand the owner of the Malibu had assigned management and charter of the aircraft to DH.

He in turn booked Ibbotson to fly the fatal flight.

However the owner must take responsibility for the safety of those who flew in it.

There are both criminal and civil actions on the horizon.

One thing for sure is any insurance policy will be invalid.

[piperp2]

Originally Posted by Camargue

snd - I do agree with your post and can feel your frustation but the fact remains with the level of CO in Sala's bloodstream both were almost certainly unconcious when the plane hit the water. Had the pilot been a 20,000 hour ATPL the end result would be the same (but we wouldnt know the cause as the plane would have more likely turfed in from fl150 and no bodies would have been found.) This doesnt change the legality of the flight but the cause of the crash was not down to a lack of qualifications.

But would a 20.000 ATPL fly an aircraft of that type with no CO sensor of any kind? Flown many hours in light singles but never without a CO sensor

[newfoundglory]

Further to my original post about what a PPL student should do, on a lesson today I noticed the aircraft is fitted with a stick on CO detector (changing colour dot type). I think this is probably best, as you may not hear an alarm.

I will certainly be checking it more frequently going forward......

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Originally Posted by Camargue

snd - I do agree with your post and can feel your frustation but the fact remains with the level of CO in Sala's bloodstream both were almost certainly unconcious when the plane hit the water. Had the pilot been a 20,000 hour ATPL the end result would be the same (but we wouldnt know the cause as the plane would have more likely turfed in from fl150 and no bodies would have been found.) This doesnt change the legality of the flight but the cause of the crash was not down to a lack of qualifications.

But, does it make the outbound flight any more legal? Although CO has apparently been found in Sala DI was way outside his qualifications for both outbound and inbound flights. CO poisoning is irrelevant. The flight was illegal and Sala died as a result of a criminal act. From available transcripts, pilot qualifications and aircraft registry the flight was illegal. I’d lay good odds that DI didn’t know the return details until too late. He got airborne knowing a) the flight was illegal, b) he wasn’t qualified to fly that aircraft in those conditions at night. He went, and in doing so killed his passenger. CO poisoning was irrelevant to the legality of the flight and his knowledge of it. CO poisoning may have been an added extra to the already potentially lethal cocktail of bad weather, unqualified pilot and a lot of pressure. CO poisoning is no excuse for his willingness to break the law, it may just have been the final straw.

I’d be interested to know just how CO poisoning could have been detected, at the reported levels in a body that had been under seawater for so many days.

DI had no excuse, CO poisoning is no excuse. And the price was horrendous.

SND

[jumpseater]

Originally Posted by Mike Flynn

The owner of a maintenance company has also remarked it needed a lot done to bring it up to a safe standard

Whilst there’s plenty of circumstantial evidence that rules were being broken on the accident flight and potentially others, there's no evidence that I’ve seen in the public domain, that indicates that the required maintenance had not been completed at the time of the final flight. If there is perhaps you could provide a link to the source.

[megan]

Given the mention of the state of maintenance, was the aircraft even airworthy? Local organisation refused to release an aircraft (100 hourly) when owner pressed not to have certain work done. Owner relented, and paid.

[PDR1]

Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia

I’d be interested to know just how CO poisoning could have been detected, at the reported levels in a body that had been under seawater for so many days.

CO poisoning produces permanent damage to red blood cells - it's a signature which remains and can be identified even in a long-deceased body and it gives fairly precise values of the scale. CO poisoning is not just a matter of lack of oxygen (as happens with CO2) - it is actually a poisonous gas. CO "locks" the haemoglobin in the blood such that it can't take oxygen even when it's present. If you suffer CO poisoning beyond a certain level even getting you away from the CO and giving you 100% oxygen via a mask won't save you - you will die unless you are given a rapid and massive transfusion of red blood cells (which is rarely possible).

So the detection of CO poisoning in "a body that had been under seawater for so many days" is not in any way remarkable or strange.

PDR

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Originally Posted by PDR1

CO poisoning produces permanent damage to red blood cells - it's a signature which remains and can be identified even in a long-deceased body and it gives fairly precise values of the scale. CO poisoning is not just a matter of lack of oxygen (as happens with CO2) - it is actually a poisonous gas. CO "locks" the haemoglobin in the blood such that it can't take oxygen even when it's present. If you suffer CO poisoning beyond a certain level even getting you away from the CO and giving you 100% oxygen via a mask won't save you - you will die unless you are given a rapid and massive transfusion of red blood cells (which is rarely possible).

So the detection of CO poisoning in "a body that had been under seawater for so many days" is not in any way remarkable or strange.

PDR

However the time lapse from recovery (of victim) to discovery (of toxicity) does seem both remarkable and strange I.M.H.O.
Be lucky
David

[piperp2]

Originally Posted by The AvgasDinosaur

However the time lapse from recovery (of victim) to discovery (of toxicity) does seem both remarkable and strange I.M.H.O.
Be lucky
David

I wondered about that one...........

[DaveReidUK]

I doubt the delay was to the tests, just to the publication of the AAIB Special Bulletin that contained the results.

[jumpseater]

Originally Posted by megan

Given the mention of the state of maintenance, was the aircraft even airworthy?.

Is that the bloke who saw the aircraft when it needed maintenance several months before the accident, doesn’t know if any faults were rectified by another agency, and says if they had been rectified, (which he doesn’t know), ‘everything would be fine and dandy’?

The piece regarding your local aircraft is irrelevant.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Originally Posted by PDR1

CO poisoning produces permanent damage to red blood cells - it's a signature which remains and can be identified even in a long-deceased body and it gives fairly precise values of the scale. CO poisoning is not just a matter of lack of oxygen (as happens with CO2) - it is actually a poisonous gas. CO "locks" the haemoglobin in the blood such that it can't take oxygen even when it's present. If you suffer CO poisoning beyond a certain level even getting you away from the CO and giving you 100% oxygen via a mask won't save you - you will die unless you are given a rapid and massive transfusion of red blood cells (which is rarely possible).

So the detection of CO poisoning in "a body that had been under seawater for so many days" is not in any way remarkable or strange.

PDR

Thanks PDR. Some googling on my part comes up with similar explanations. Apparently CO suicides often change their minds, but then find its too late to escape from the stuff.

SND