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Two killed on beach when aircraft makes emergency landing.

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Two killed on beach when aircraft makes emergency landing.

Old 13th Aug 2017, 07:05
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan
What if you couldn't swim, or worse, suffered from aquaphobia? How would that play into the decision making process? Just saying....
That did occur to me. I enjoy swimming, but I have observed the overwhelming fear/panic some people experience when they suddenly decide they are in too deep. I can believe that might play into their decision making process.

Suppose a person like that was on a sinking boat. Would their fear justify taking the life jacket from a child?

That's analogous to what happened here. The pilot shifted the risk from himself to the people on the beach, including a little girl.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 10:20
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Privit.... I do not know what the position is in the states but 'Forwrd Slip' or -slide slip' as it known in the UK, is a technique rarely used or practised by private pilots or instructors . I agree sideslip is an invaluable technique, as long pilots are taught well and not to attempt it in a turn.

Again in turns of oprating in coastal regions, I never understand why pilots do not wear lifejacks and immerssion suits when the se is cold. Likewise why do pilots not carry survival knives especially when carrying life raft raft. I say this because a number of years ago, someone accidently inflated the lifer aft on the ground, and basically the pilot got squashed up against the instruments and ncontrols, imagine that happening in the air! It will happen

For that reason, I have always tried to have a survival knife with me. I know everyone is going to flag up sucirity. I once got ot told by security, that I could not board with a life jaclet, despite the fact there about 188 already in the cabin. The Captain allowed it in the end.


I heard people say use a ball point pen, but I dont think that would be rapid enought. In the case of the A320 in the Hudson, someone on one of the boats had to through his penknife from a boat, so they could cut the lanyard!
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 10:28
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Originally Posted by Homsap
Privit.... I do not know what the position is in the states but 'Forwrd Slip' or -slide slip' as it known in the UK, is a technique rarely used or practised by private pilots or instructors . I agree sideslip is an invaluable technique, as long pilots are taught well and not to attempt it in a turn.
In consequence of which I once got an instructor to give me an hour's side slipping. We got something like another 200fpm of descent - not really a big deal, but obviously would make a difference in a marginal case.
Originally Posted by Homsap
Again in turns of opreating in coastal regions, I never understand why pilots do not wear lifejacks and immerssion suits when the see is cold.
'Cos they don't come as standard equipment with the rented club aircraft.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 11:52
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Gertrude ..... i'm not sure what you were flying, but you were sensible to take instruction, but I would say you can achieve more that the exra 200 feet per minute. But the instructor was probably and rightly so, being a bit conservate. Obviviously the ROD is going to vary between types, what it says in the Flight Manual, how much bank is used and the rudder authority.

I beleive that is one of the reasons, some maufaturers, advise against sideslipping with full flap also, if you look at the rudders at the early Slingby T67 is much smaller than say the Bulldog or Beagle Pup.

As a word of warning, there was a number of years ago, gliding club usiing DHC Chipmonks and pushed the aircraft to the limits in terms of sidesliping, it was an accident waiting to happen. During a check flight, on finals the aircraft flight rolled inverted, landed inverted killing the pilots.

I'm not entirely what caused the aircraft to flick but I suspect the aircraft was still in a turn the pilot intiated a high ROD using sidesl. Alternately he may have applied full flap while in still in slideslip, but I think that less likely.

Last edited by Homsap; 13th Aug 2017 at 12:40.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 12:11
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The brief video clip of the aircraft crossing the beach from right to left shows that the pitch attitude was abnormally nose high such that the tail skid was approximately level with the mainwheels with a flightpath that was approximately constant. This would indicate that the aircraft was below the normal approach speed and that the margin above the stall was reduced from that which would normally exist during a glide approach. If bank had been applied to turn towards the sea then there was a potential for the aircraft to stall, the precise bank angle required being a function of the IAS. A stall would have resulted in an uncontrolled impact on the beach. We do not know what the airspeed was nor whether the pilot had the capacity to consider stall margin and the reduced potential to turn but this could have been a factor. In addition, abnormally slow speed may have put the aircraft at less than minimum drag speed such that the pilot was confronted with an unfamiliar relationship between pitch attitude and flightpath, further complicated by the tailwind. Therefore, it may not have been easy for him to predict the touchdown point in such unfamiliar circumstances. Also, there was a small amount of right bank applied just before the aircraft went out of frame on the video so there was possibly some attempt made to control the azimuth flightpath of the aircraft.

For those who read this thread but who do not fly single engine light aeroplanes and/or who have not had an engine failure in one, there are many factors that influence a pilot's decision making regarding control of the flightpath of the aircraft. One of these will certainly be the nature of the touchdown point which will include consideration of any human occupation. However, in such a high stress scenario a pilot may have limited spare mental capacity available for making such decisions and, therefore, may not take a course of action which, with hindsight, would have been optimal.

Pilots are humans and humans have performance limitations as an inherent aspect of their biology. These must always be taken into account when a tragic accident such as this occurs.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 12:15
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Homsap,

In aeroplanes where it is advised not to sideslip in a certain flap configuration the reason is often that sideslip, in addition to producing increased drag, also may produce a pitching moment and there may be insufficient elevator authority to counter this. The reason why flap affects this is because of the change in downwash angle at the tailplane as a function of flap deflection.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 12:30
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From experience, urgent situations cause the field of attention to close in. I have had non aviation events that, because of my foreshortened field of attention, have brought me into near contact with bystanders. I was lucky that I was able to make small changes to miss them.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 15:38
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LOMOVACK.... I accept your points, on the other hand flap postions can cause pitch down, so the moral of the story is the read the flight manual, which I know does not always happen.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 17:19
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Originally Posted by LOMCEVAK
The brief video clip of the aircraft crossing the beach from right to left shows that the pitch attitude was abnormally nose high ... This would indicate that the aircraft was below the normal approach speed and that the margin above the stall was reduced from that which would normally exist during a glide approach.
Certainly, and in the aftermath the left wing was broken with the strut failed in compression. They hit hard, according to witnesses they bounced several times. No doubt they were trying to clear the people on the beach. In the video they are too low and slow to maneuver. However, before that time, with bathers clearly occupying the beach, they could have opted to ditch. They didn't, and they will have to live with the consequences.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 17:50
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PPRT,
with bathers clearly occupying the beach, they could have opted to ditch
Or perhaps there appeared to be a clear patch of beach before or after where the bathers were but they misjudged the flightpath of the aircraft? And at what point did they recognise the bathers with respect to the last point at which they could have turned clear of them towards the water?

Whilst I accept that turning towards the water and ditching was an obvious viable option up to a certain point of the approach, there are several factors that could/would have affected their decision making which resulted in them adopting a flightpath which, sadly, resulted in these fatalities. They may have been grossly negligent but this could also have been an error of judgement.

This will be a difficult investigation because as far as we know there is no video of the complete approach, either onboard or external, and no FDR. As you say, whatever the outcome of the investigation, they will have to live with the consequences of their actions.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 23:16
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Originally Posted by LOMCEVAK
there are several factors that could/would have affected their decision making which resulted in them adopting a flightpath which, sadly, resulted in these fatalities.
I'd like to see a factor added to that decision-making process. Don't bring shame to the flying community. Be a hero, not a zero. For example, here's a hero. Footage shows lifeguards rescue hero pilot who crashed plane into sea to avoid killing sunbathers - Mirror Online

Here's another. Herne Bay Air Show crash pilot forced to plunge plane in sea 'became trapped in cockpit after wearing WRONG lifejacket' - Mirror Online

That's what I expect, bravo.

Regarding the forward slip, I don't remember how I learned it. Maybe my flight instructor covered it in forced landings, he definitely trained me to trim for best glide speed and look for the best landing spot. In any case, it differs from a slide slip in that you push the nose down, and descend steeply without gaining airspeed, because the fuselage is somewhat sideways, creating a lot of drag. In a forced landing (or a glider landing!) you want to conserve altitude in case you need it. So you arrive too high. The forward slip bleeds off that energy safely. See Wikipedia, "Slip (aerodynamics)". I only used it for fun, or once when I started my descent too late and was way too high approaching to land.

Famous application, the celebrated Gimli Glider. Now that's a heroic yarn.
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Old 14th Aug 2017, 00:33
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Interesting that you mention the Gimli Glider because the disused runway they went for was also occupied by people on the ground. They had no option but to continue the approach. So is there a point where the number of passengers on board absolves you from responsibility for people on the ground because you have a greater responsibility for your passengers on board or does having two engines absolve you from responsibility because you don't have the responsibility of a single engine pilot of always thinking about where you are going to land if the engine fails?
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Old 14th Aug 2017, 04:53
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Originally Posted by runway30
Interesting that you mention the Gimli Glider because the disused runway they went for was also occupied by people on the ground.
The general area was occupied by large numbers of people, but obviously not the runway they used, as there were no fatalities. I think they would have to go with the "greater good", do their best to save as many lives as possible, whether they were in the air or on the ground. Most likely that will mean focusing on saving your passengers in the case of an airliner.

At Gimli, there was no trade off between lives in the air and on the ground. A little good luck with all the bad that day.
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