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Two killed on beach when aircraft makes emergency landing.

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Two killed on beach when aircraft makes emergency landing.

Old 4th Aug 2017, 01:14
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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I don't see how we can make any 'judgement' call yet.

Some observations from the available YouTube videos I've seen:

- In some videos before the Police tapes were up there were still puddles of water between the aircraft and crowd side of the beach. Other video post Police tape show a dusty dry sand. Suggests the tide were on its way out.

- As the aircraft has clear damage from hitting an object it would suggest to me the high probability of the aircraft spinning around on landing. So the way the aircraft is sitting post accident may not indicate flight approach path.

- The sea breeze 'effect' can be quiet strong along a beach at low level. The wind direction and strength barely 500' above the beach could be very different. A pilot having an engine failure a few thousand feet above the built up residential area behind the beach might be suckered into gliding towards the ocean thinking they will make it. As the aircraft looses altitude and the local sea breeze effect comes into play then the aircraft may land short.

To me, waiting for an accident report before judging the pilot seems prudent at this time.






.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 01:49
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FWIW I have had an engine failure at 60 ft.

At that point you have basically arrived.

You are going somewhere between 30 deg left or right and no further than what is just passing out of sight under the nose.

By the time I secured the engine and switches I was pulling the flap on while flaring to land.

Maybe 3 - 4 seconds.

"Glide Ratio"? Think space shuttle. Especially if you are obliged to stuff the nose down to maintain flying speed initially.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 06:48
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^ Quite true, you don't have any time if your engine fails at 60 feet.... but you would have been already lined up on the centreline of a runway. The engine here, we don't know if it was rough running then failed or just failed, but we know the pilots had time for a mayday. That would have happened well in advance of the final few seconds of flight.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 07:18
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Why would that be?

Some of us do this for a living.

Some days I don't get above 300ft.

I respect the fact you have a PPL.

Respect the fact many on here have a bit more.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 07:53
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I would hope that you were more than 300ft above people, vessels or structures.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 07:59
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Why?

Operational requirement.

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Old 4th Aug 2017, 08:24
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Looks like everybody assumes that the sea was empty.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 08:36
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Originally Posted by currawong
Why would that be?

Some of us do this for a living.

Some days I don't get above 300ft.

I respect the fact you have a PPL.

Respect the fact many on here have a bit more.
This was a training flight in a C152. The 300 or 60 ft where you planned to fly would have meant you were crop dusting, moving livestock or similar or a military pilot. An engine failure at crop dusting heights would mean an instant landing. Although crop dusting is outside my experience, I can imangine an engine failure on short final at the same hight and what would happen then.
An engine failure at PPL training or private flying altitude means some time to think - so even if I only have a PPL, I don't see how your engine failure at 60ft is directly comparible to an engine failure at PPL altitudes where you do have time to do things, including make a mayday and select a landing point. The 60 ft I mentioned also isn't the height where the pilots would have first realised this was a crowded beach - that would have been clear well beforehand. 60 ft is about where you might know your exact landing point on the beach and still have a few seconds to do something if there is something at your landing point.

Selecting a suitable forced landing site was drummed into me during PPL. In the absence of control problems, it's quite hard to see how a beach with people on it would be suitable.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 09:28
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by arketip
Looks like everybody assumes that the sea was empty.
Certainly looks that way.




Was the pilot hoping to save the airframe?
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 10:30
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Originally Posted by IcePaq
Pretty crowded beach should have had at least one guy yelling to get out of the way as the plane made an approach.
Cant expect that to happen, youd have to see it where youd only hear it about 30ft above the ground.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 11:26
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I think Jay has got it spot on, it could be an FI who decided to prioritise saving his aircraft. I also have flown PFLs at deserted beaches and if my eyesight wasn't good enough to see people on the beach at 500 feet then I wouldn't have been legal to fly it. I also agree that we can't condemn the pilot before we know the full facts but after seeing the most recent pictures my decision would have been to go in the sea.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 12:01
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Originally Posted by AirJing
And yes, if I did not like what I saw a few seconds before impact like people (although you would have a lot more than a few seconds to work out you were over a crowded beach), I'd be minded to try something different.
Reminds me somewhat of when I was doing my night rating. The instructor I was flying with told me - if you have an engine failure at night, aim for the blackest part of the countryside. A few seconds before impact, turn the landing lights on to see where you will likely land.

I asked him what I should do if I didn't like what I saw...... to which he coolly replied:

Turn the light off
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 12:05
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Originally Posted by Jay Sata
Certainly looks that way.




Was the pilot hoping to save the airframe?
That's a really high pitch attitude for a powerless glide with flaps down.
There are definitely people in the water.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 13:11
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Originally Posted by B2N2
That's a really high pitch attitude for a powerless glide with flaps down.
There are definitely people in the water.
Could assume perhaps they picked a spot on the beach with no people on but because of the angle of approach missed it or undershot it.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 13:22
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Originally Posted by squidie
Could assume perhaps they picked a spot on the beach with no people on but because of the angle of approach missed it or undershot it.
Yes, they could have seen a space between the people sitting on the beach and the people standing in the surf. There is a huge risk that someone is going to walk or run in front of you. If you go for the sea there is a risk of swimmers in the sea that you can't see. Take a choice.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 13:37
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Originally Posted by runway30
Yes, they could have seen a space between the people sitting on the beach and the people standing in the surf. There is a huge risk that someone is going to walk or run in front of you. If you go for the sea there is a risk of swimmers in the sea that you can't see. Take a choice.
Id like to say the sea but its still too early to say
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 16:53
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Originally Posted by runway30
I think Jay has got it spot on, it could be an FI who decided to prioritise saving his aircraft.
This was not his aircraft. The flight school concerned were renting the a/c from the school that owned it.

Video of the approach here:

https://goo.gl/pDddjg

Sorry, but you will have to sit through an advert first.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 17:46
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The winds and the flaps would have made the exact aiming point very hard to judge. If you look at the sea, you can see there is a fairly strong wind. You can see the white in the waves.

Also I could see at least 5 people in the sea, so there would have been people in the sea too. He chose the "best" option, out of many bad options available.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 17:51
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Originally Posted by BusAirDriver
He chose the "best" option, out of many bad options available.
Hardly. The people which can be seen in the sea are very close to the beach. 50m away from the beach they would have hurt nobody. Turning towards the sea even as low as they were in that video would have taken them far enough away. There is no excuse for landing on top of people when there is an alternative.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 18:03
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Originally Posted by BusAirDriver
The winds and the flaps would have made the exact aiming point very hard to judge. If you look at the sea, you can see there is a fairly strong wind. You can see the white in the waves.

Also I could see at least 5 people in the sea, so there would have been people in the sea too. He chose the "best" option, out of many bad options available.
The people in the surf are only knee deep in water, 20 feet further off shore would have been the best and doable option.
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