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Hawker Hunter down at Shoreham

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Hawker Hunter down at Shoreham

Old 23rd Aug 2015, 15:18
  #121 (permalink)  
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fish

Well said Shytorque.

I have been deeply affected by this accident. more than by any other of late. I have retired from a long and varied piloting career, and have always accepted the risks and dangers as part of the job.

The difference here is the totally random nature in which Fate goes hunting.

The dead had nothing to do with this airshow, or its risks at all. Simply sitting in a traffic queue and taken in a mad, shocking, fiery instant.

My heart goes out to those poor unfortunate people, and their families and friends who are left behind to pick up the pieces and carry on.

And of course to the pilot and his kin. Whatever turns out to have been the cause of this tragedy, he has to live with it.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 15:36
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Life is risky enough without aircraft enthusiasts' fantasies creating unnecessary and unwanted hazards. That is the issue here. It doesn't matter what the root cause is, the margins of safety were obviously exceeded. There is no justification for putting other people's lives at risk.

What makes incidents like this cause more virulent reaction is the now ubiquitous documentary evidence. It brings everyone closer to the tragedy of the event, so we have to expect greater outrage. It doesn't make the outrage unjustified in this case
Really? shall we get this into persective. "aircraft enthusiasts fantasies" - get real. Airshows are THE NUMBER 1 spectator sport in the UK - more go to airshows than football. Oh yeah and more fans - many more have died at football matches than airshows.
This is a horrific, tragic accident. It was 24 hours ago. 7 people died -the first at a UK airshow since the 50's. some perspective on that - 10 have died on UK roads since and another 10 tomorrow and another 10 on tuesday and so on. 10,000 a year die completely preventably at the hands of the NHS.
What about the chinese container port explosion that killed many innocent bystanders-have you stopped buying cheap chinese imports until their industries improve health and safety? Nope. Thought not.
Lets have a report - lets learn what happened and put steps into place (if needed) to try and minimise the chance of it happening again (note - minimise - not prevent - nothing is 100% preventable) but lets not vilify the airshow community for something that, whilst horrific and has a lasting effect on those involved, is still a vanishingly small risk to those involved.
I'm more worried about getting mown down by a sleepy truck driver on the M25 tomorrow than I ever will be from any aviation activity.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 15:55
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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So to all those wishing perimeter roads to be closed, if we take the argument to its extreme. Are the "spotters" shown here







at mortal danger on the A15 which despite having wigwams to stop traffic, is not a sterile zone when AC approach Waddo from the East, even during air shows. The same could be said for many many other airfields and displays.


Very sad incident but one that could happen anywhere AC are at low level, not just performing a display.


Kegworth was only a miracle that innocent users of the M1 were not involved, but the M1 and link road have not been put into a tunnel to protect them although there is nothing to say it wont happen again
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 16:05
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Plenty of other places where runway thresholds have been displaced, arrestor beds installed, traffic lights placed on roads though.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 16:15
  #125 (permalink)  
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A good measured article if anyone is interested putting some much needed accuracy and perspective on the tragedy of yesterday. Considering the "white heat" of the media.

Read the "Blog" Titled UK Airshow Safety:

Struggling to get this to post..... So here's the Google link:
Vintage Aeroplane Writer
vintageaeroplanewriter.com/
6 days ago - The Vintage Aviator Collection built RAAF Museum' RE8 replica; incredibly authentic on the grass at RAAF Point Cook. This, I'm now sure, ...

Last edited by PFR; 23rd Aug 2015 at 16:27.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 16:30
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not sure why all these posts about risk and who is taking it ??

We live in a life of risks and accept it, some chosen and some not in your control. If you somehow quantify a specific risk, then maybe you can argue it was unreasonable to most of us and not just yourself who could have avoided it.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 16:46
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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As others have already said, in the midst of a sequence of aircraft losses at air shows, this incident is by far the most unsettling. Yet others have rightly pointed out that caution is the watch word, we don't know all the facts; there may have been a control failure, pilot incapacity etc.
But what niggles , what unsettles is the unpalatable thought that eleven completely innocent souls had their dreams expectations lives violently snatched from them and NOTHING ... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING will be learned from the event.
I suspect a pilot botched a loop as innumerable pilots before have and for exactly the same painfully well known reasons. The distraught relatives of the victims may well secretly wished their love ones cars had been fitted with ejection seats so they too could have banged out at the last moment. In case any think I am an aviation hater far from it. I love planes, love air shows and love flying my Pitts.

(PS 757 driver--your statistic re deaths in the NHS is wrong. The number is far higher....and the number of preventable deaths far far lower.)
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 16:47
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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First and foremost, my commiserations to all victims, families and friends.

Secondly, a suggestion that a major portion of the second half of the loop appears to lack sufficient pitch rate, except for the last few seconds when the rate then appears to increase considerably.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 17:04
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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de-lurking...

Lets have a report - lets learn what happened and put steps into place (if needed) to try and minimise the chance of it happening again (note - minimise - not prevent - nothing is 100% preventable) but lets not vilify the airshow community for something that, whilst horrific and has a lasting effect on those involved, is still a vanishingly small risk to those involved
How would the air show community react to (for example) a change in the minimum height requirements for specific maneuvers though?

I've been fortunate enough to watch almost four decades of Jersey International Air Displays, and it's been interesting (if that's the right word) to see how accidents (particularly Ramstein) have changed it over that time.

Because of the location of the airport here relative to the display area and because most of the island has been built on, there's always going to be a risk of an out-of-control aircraft killing people when it hits the ground; I've got photographs of vintage jets behind me (parallel to the the sea wall where most of the spectator are) before they cross in to the display area, and the Red Arrows often fly directly over my house.

But those aircraft are usually flying straight and level and not starting or finishing any maneuvers, and the reaction of most of aviation enthusiast friends (who don't want air shows banned) to this tragedy is variations on "why was a display aircraft pulling up from a loop near a road?" (instead of merely flying over it) in a "did anyone fully consider what might happen if someone attempts a loop over there and something goes wrong?" sense.

The but-but-but-more-people-have-been-killed-by-something-else-etc. (the JIAD hasn't killed anyone) arguments seem to have been directed at people who think air shows should be banned, but my concern is that some people in the air show community will react to calls for any new restrictions (which will come; accidents often expose deficiencies in established procedures, and they will need to be addressed) with an argument that isn't relevant. It's happening here a bit (but not from the person I quoted).

Closing roads isn't that extreme. For the JIAD, the dual carriageway (most busy road on the island) next to the beach is closed and the entire beach (a huge area when the tide is out) if off-limits

Last edited by spangzilla; 24th Aug 2015 at 20:25.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 17:18
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Whilst this is a tragic accident, I have no doubt the AAIB will do as thorough a job as they always do, though I would not envy the team the unpleasant circumstances they're likely to be encountering at the moment. There's not a lot of point repeating others valid comments, although there may be a few questions that don't seem to have aroused much query.

1. Any significant airshow attracts a large number of people around the wider perimeter/area, either trying to get a better vantage point for their filming, or to avoid the ticket price. They often position themselves deliberately under, or beyond, the display line to maximise the thrill; experience; photo location etc. . . and RISK!

2. I believe all airshow Directors in the UK are obliged to issue a display authorisation to each pilot/team, although I also understand that one Director may be able to pass on such authorisation for other airshows once practiced & performed (happy to be corrected on this). I would expect this display will have been scripted so that both pilot & commentator would know the order and type of manoeuvre being performed?

3. From my aerobatics many years ago, a loop was always a continuation of the entering direction of travel - I do believe this pilot pulled up heading approx 200 deg but impacted heading approx 020deg, all parallel with the 02 runway as per the display line. NOT a "loop the loop" by any description, though I'm no longer familiar with the correct term. If I've completely mis-interpreted the camera angle, I stand to be corrected.

4. I would also wonder what height/speed one might expect to enter such a manoeuvre, as it will have required a certain vertical requirement, in the conditions of the day, the margin of which could be as little as 20 ft between spectacular & disaster?

I've personally witnessed two aircraft spear-in at airshows, and knew they didn't stand a chance when my stomach contracted a number of seconds before they impacted. Both were fixed wing and trying to pull tighter having effectively mis-judged their line/wind/height/performance. It's sadly quite obvious to many aviators, and horribly unsettling on every occasion, particularly if one is due to fly shortly afterwards. It's also very sobering and reminds us that we hold a huge responsibility to operate as professionally as we can every single time we get airborne. I've viewed footage of many others, often in tandem with reading the meticulous reports generated by AAIB and other nation equivalents in order to learn the lessons from the misfortunes of others. Vary sadly, in due course, we're going to have to learn some more lessons from this one.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 17:21
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Having watched the numerous videos online, it does appear to be a very low entry height and slow pitch rate, with an accelerated pitch response later in the loop, along with very low airspeed.

'IF ' this proves to be pilot error and a loop was continued when it should have been thrown away, then this pilot should face charges for the innocent loss of life as a result of his actions.

We all love aircraft and aviation, but you have to act responsibly anytime you are in control of something so potentially lethal, especially at a public event.

It is such a sad loss of innocent life.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 17:35
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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1. Any significant airshow attracts a large number of people around the wider perimeter/area, either trying to get a better vantage point for their filming, or to avoid the ticket price. They often position themselves deliberately under, or beyond, the display line to maximise the thrill; experience; photo location etc. . . and RISK!
Sorry Zorab64, these were innocent people completely uninvolved with the airshow going about their business. Totally unacceptable that they died in such a manner.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 17:46
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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New footage on BBC shows a pitch down at bottom of loop. G induced incap ?
Tragic in every way, but the UK aaib will find out what happened. I hope these " vintage" aircraft can continue to be seen in their element where they belong.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 17:49
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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these were innocent people completely uninvolved with the airshow going about their business. Totally unacceptable that they died in such a manner.
And it should be pointed out there is a suitable entirely risk-free airspace ideal for aerobatic demonstrations just a few miles away - the sea front.

Bournemouth moved their air displays from airport to sea-front many years ago with great success. In my view the same should now happen at Shoreham.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 17:56
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Can anyone on this thread explain to me why the aircraft was carrying two drop tanks? The two distinct smoke plumes suggest to me that they both exploded on impact, which suggests they were fuelled. Was this entirely necessary? Does the Hawker Hunter not have an onboard fuel tank?
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 17:57
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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And it should be pointed out there is a suitable entirely risk-free airspace ideal for aerobatic demonstrations just a few miles away - the sea front.
Completely agree. I have been flying and involved (in a small way) with airshows for 35+ years. I am horrified and ashamed by this incident. The apologists talk about an 'RAF Ace' and BA Pilot, 'high standards for airshows in the UK' and 'infinitesimal risks' - all of which is admirable and probably true. However, whatever way you look at it, completely uninvolved people have been killed because of others failings and THAT is a crime.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 18:00
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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At Duxford A P-38 Lightening came to grief at the bottom of a loop with the tragic loss of the pilot.
More research needs to be put into loops with older aircraft.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 18:04
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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We can discuss as much as we want here - market forces will take care of whether or not that kind of airshow will be possible in the future. Insurance premiums will probably rise to a level that many airshows will be unable to afford flying displays.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 18:05
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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At Duxford A P-38 Lightening came to grief at the bottom of a loop with the tragic loss of the pilot.
More research needs to be put into loops with older aircraft.
That was a roll not a loop.

Putting more research into air display loops does seem advisable though, irrespective of the age of the aircraft.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 18:23
  #140 (permalink)  
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Experienced pilots, please tell us what's happening here and whether that is what you'd expect or not Shoreham air crash: Man films Hunter hitting A27 road - BBC News
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