Cargo Crash at Bagram
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In a previous life as military Loadmaster, the most interesting tasking we had was aerial delivery of various cargoes, platforms and vehicles. The amount of plotting and calculations that went into getting vehicles cleared for air drop was intensive, and the flight testing was a tense affair, to say the least. It all had to with CG shift, and the possibility of a load getting lodged at a new position during delivery.
You only need a heavy vehicle to move a few yards and get stuck there, to ensure an unflyable aircraft.
During actual aerial delivery you could not help but be amazed when you saw how much pitch change took place in the second or two it took for a load to run across the floor and over the ramp on extraction.
If something ended up getting lodged beyond a certain point on the floor, with heavier vehicles and boats - you were dead. No questions.
You only need a heavy vehicle to move a few yards and get stuck there, to ensure an unflyable aircraft.
During actual aerial delivery you could not help but be amazed when you saw how much pitch change took place in the second or two it took for a load to run across the floor and over the ramp on extraction.
If something ended up getting lodged beyond a certain point on the floor, with heavier vehicles and boats - you were dead. No questions.
Last edited by I.R.PIRATE; 5th May 2013 at 09:12.
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By the time we see the airplane in the upper right corner of the dash cam, it's already too late. The airplane appears to be 1000' 3/4 distance down runway length (way too high), the airspeed is creeping way below V2, stick shaker is rattling, the guys have already run the stab full forward and they're both pushing the control wheels into the instrument panel. In this violent pitch-up, the airplane should have been rolled manually into a bank by 200 feet to have had any hope of survival for the guys. But, obviously they had no training and no knowledge of this last resort, life saving technique.
More than just an ATCO
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I remember being told that the cargo tie down points or tracks used for MAC Charters and those used on civilian cargo differed. If so, would they both be capable of taking the same loads?
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GlueBall
I think it is very unfair of you to indict the crew as yet for this crash. No details are out and you have already drawn conclusions on their professionalism. It is one thing to guess what might have happened and quite another to apportion blame purely on guess work. People have lost lives you cannot be so insensitive. Let the inquiry do the job of fact finding.
I think it is very unfair of you to indict the crew as yet for this crash. No details are out and you have already drawn conclusions on their professionalism. It is one thing to guess what might have happened and quite another to apportion blame purely on guess work. People have lost lives you cannot be so insensitive. Let the inquiry do the job of fact finding.
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busTRE & vilas: The visual observations from the dash cam are self evident; an experienced transport category pilot can draw certain inferences about the probable sequence of events. A non pilot cannot.
This forum is for interested respondents to share opinions and observations without having to wait 18 months for an official probable cause to be published.
My point was to highlight an issue of deficient knowledge and lack of simulator training about CG shifts on cargo airplanes after rotation, with emphasis about the necessity of having to bank & turn to arrest an uncontrolled pitch-up.
This forum is for interested respondents to share opinions and observations without having to wait 18 months for an official probable cause to be published.
My point was to highlight an issue of deficient knowledge and lack of simulator training about CG shifts on cargo airplanes after rotation, with emphasis about the necessity of having to bank & turn to arrest an uncontrolled pitch-up.
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Any Chance it was just loaded incorrectly. One station back?
National Air Cargo confirmed their aircraft N949CA with 7 crew, 4 pilots, 2 mechanics and a load master - initial information had been 8 crew -crashed at Bagram. The airline later added, that the aircraft had been loaded with all cargo in Camp Bastion (Afghanistan, about 300nm southwest of Bagram), the cargo had been inspected at Camp Bastion, the aircraft subsequently positioned to Bagram for a refuelling stop with no difficulty, no cargo was added or removed, however, the cargo was again inspected before the aircraft departed for the leg to Dubai Al Maktoum.
Last edited by Hotel Tango; 5th May 2013 at 12:38.
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GlueBall:
I second what vilas said. Any transport category pilot will tell you it's complete BS to deduce an aviator's training record and knowledge from a few seconds of pixelated video of their demise filmed from half a mile away. That's what the investigation team exist for.
While its informative and useful for the community to speculate a little about "maybe it was a load shift", or "if you study the wingtips really closely from the very beginning of the clip, their motion suggests almost Phugoid motion which might imply they had no direct control over the aircraft at all", while we can drop these things into conversation, there are too many variables for anyone to make any specific statements about this incident, I will wait for the report to come out for that! No offence meant.
I second what vilas said. Any transport category pilot will tell you it's complete BS to deduce an aviator's training record and knowledge from a few seconds of pixelated video of their demise filmed from half a mile away. That's what the investigation team exist for.
While its informative and useful for the community to speculate a little about "maybe it was a load shift", or "if you study the wingtips really closely from the very beginning of the clip, their motion suggests almost Phugoid motion which might imply they had no direct control over the aircraft at all", while we can drop these things into conversation, there are too many variables for anyone to make any specific statements about this incident, I will wait for the report to come out for that! No offence meant.
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Hi all,
Just a quick question for the experts:
If there was an aft load shift, and this happened during acceleration down the runway, is it not possible that a tailstrike occurred on rotation? And if I may ask a follow up question, is it possible that a particularly hard tailstrike could cause enough damage to components in the tail to either limit or cause total loss of pitch authority?
Just a quick question for the experts:
If there was an aft load shift, and this happened during acceleration down the runway, is it not possible that a tailstrike occurred on rotation? And if I may ask a follow up question, is it possible that a particularly hard tailstrike could cause enough damage to components in the tail to either limit or cause total loss of pitch authority?
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GlueBall
You are making too many assumptions about other people's experience, their training whether they are pilots or not. I am an experienced 747 captain and A300 to 320 captain but I shudder to draw such premature conclusions. Also don't think well trained people are not involved in accidents. Whether the situation was beyond human capability is yet to be decided and you are firing from the hip. Tommorow you get into a situation where it is possible to make wrong choices and you do and if everybody starts tirades against your training your experience and your capability without the facts I am sure you won't be ammused.
You are making too many assumptions about other people's experience, their training whether they are pilots or not. I am an experienced 747 captain and A300 to 320 captain but I shudder to draw such premature conclusions. Also don't think well trained people are not involved in accidents. Whether the situation was beyond human capability is yet to be decided and you are firing from the hip. Tommorow you get into a situation where it is possible to make wrong choices and you do and if everybody starts tirades against your training your experience and your capability without the facts I am sure you won't be ammused.
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I think what he is saying is the roll solution to uncontrollable pitch up -could- have been employed sooner in the sequence, when airspeed was still available. The fact that speed degraded so far while wings level suggests the pilots did not (obviously), could not (must wait for fdr), or simply were not aware of, the rolling solution.
edit: changed -should- to -could- ... my apologies if that was taken the wrong way.
edit: changed -should- to -could- ... my apologies if that was taken the wrong way.
Last edited by md80fanatic; 5th May 2013 at 15:26.
I was a B744 First Officer for almost 4 years doing sim every 3 months and I did not trained the high pitch upset recovery using roll. It was mention in the book but I had never trained.
I was also MD DC10 FO and we trained the high pitch recovery rolling the aircraft almost to 70' and letting the nose to come down until passing the horizon for leveling the wings again.
I was also MD DC10 FO and we trained the high pitch recovery rolling the aircraft almost to 70' and letting the nose to come down until passing the horizon for leveling the wings again.
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Fr8Dog:
In relative terms, compared to the pitch-up realized in a DC-8, the 747 by comparison has minimal pitch up/down when the thrust levers are moved. I was speaking in comparative terms, and would not characterize the 747 having "a large increase in pitch-up from the thrust of the engines" by comparison.
I am only speaking from my experiences in having flown different aircraft (and still flying both the DC-8 and 747 concurrently, BTW, making the comparison all the more obvious, at least to me). Your perception may differ, as everyone seems to see things differently, which is certainly verified by this thread.
Despite what some (Desert185) have claimed here, there is a large increase in pitch-up from the thrust of the engines.
I am only speaking from my experiences in having flown different aircraft (and still flying both the DC-8 and 747 concurrently, BTW, making the comparison all the more obvious, at least to me). Your perception may differ, as everyone seems to see things differently, which is certainly verified by this thread.
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Not sure if anybody has posted this video yet, not sure if it really gives any added value.
However here it is for observation.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6ca_1367498083
However here it is for observation.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6ca_1367498083
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With regard to the stall recovery technique using bank.......
On 29th December 2000 a man burst into the flight deck of a 747-400 en-route to Nairobi. He grabbed the control column and pulled it back. The F/O, who was on his own on the flight deck was faced with a certain stall as the nose rose 20 degrees. As he still had control of the ailerons he banked the aircraft 90 degrees, allowing the nose to drop below the horizon before levelling the wings. By this time the captain and another passenger were subduing the intruder.
The reason that this is relevant to the Bagram incident is that the Nairobi aircraft lost 10,000ft during the recovery. I'm not sure that this technique would have much chance at low altitude.
On 29th December 2000 a man burst into the flight deck of a 747-400 en-route to Nairobi. He grabbed the control column and pulled it back. The F/O, who was on his own on the flight deck was faced with a certain stall as the nose rose 20 degrees. As he still had control of the ailerons he banked the aircraft 90 degrees, allowing the nose to drop below the horizon before levelling the wings. By this time the captain and another passenger were subduing the intruder.
The reason that this is relevant to the Bagram incident is that the Nairobi aircraft lost 10,000ft during the recovery. I'm not sure that this technique would have much chance at low altitude.
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Well, everyone's speculating anyway.
The aircraft certainly stalled, horrifying wing rock at the point of stall.
Either wing drop, or more likely IMHO the guys use bank to slice the nose.
Unfortunately, not nearly enough altitude to recover.
I reckon pallets secure, but cargo not. A heavy item slips its bonds and escapes stowage. A fairly light load needs only one vehicle to move rearwards to put C of G outside controlable limits.
Utterly tragic, some of our own have perished needlessly.
Let's learn some lessons so their lives are not lost in vain.
The aircraft certainly stalled, horrifying wing rock at the point of stall.
Either wing drop, or more likely IMHO the guys use bank to slice the nose.
Unfortunately, not nearly enough altitude to recover.
I reckon pallets secure, but cargo not. A heavy item slips its bonds and escapes stowage. A fairly light load needs only one vehicle to move rearwards to put C of G outside controlable limits.
Utterly tragic, some of our own have perished needlessly.
Let's learn some lessons so their lives are not lost in vain.
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StopStart #348: "Those of us professionals that work" "The tie-down scheme is scientifically designed to provide fore, aft and vertical restraint off the load to, in this case, the pallet".
Aircrafts are also scientifically designed, but still accidents hapen. If the loading in pic @ #352 was made by using the best available science I now understand why Al Gore got his Nobel Prize.
I agree with Dimitris @ #353. A gentle amount of braking g`s and the straps become loose. Of course, @#352 is not the picture of this flight, but there is also the possibility that the cargo was strapped even worse.
Aircrafts are also scientifically designed, but still accidents hapen. If the loading in pic @ #352 was made by using the best available science I now understand why Al Gore got his Nobel Prize.
I agree with Dimitris @ #353. A gentle amount of braking g`s and the straps become loose. Of course, @#352 is not the picture of this flight, but there is also the possibility that the cargo was strapped even worse.
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Tunnel vision
Hi Dear Experts,
Never flown a 747-400F but deeply involved in aviation safety issues. Following the twenty plus pages of discussion on this sad event I’m really stunned that this topic is spinning around and around an initial preconception of „load shift” or C.G. problem thrown in for our attention by somebody at a very early stage. After this momentum everybody’s mind is focused on this scenario. It would worth a psychological study in itself. What about dozens of other possible causes: pilot incapacitation, severe flight control malfunctions? (If my memory serves me well there was a cargo DC-8 accident in the US where a blasted rock vedged the elevator in a nose up position on takeoff. A pilot in a nearby parking lot eyewitnessed the whole event and described roughly the same wing rocking stall sequence!)
I think this whole topic is a good example why professional investigators are trained thoroughly to be able to ignore preconceptions and start every investigation open-minded and with a blank sheet of paper.
Never flown a 747-400F but deeply involved in aviation safety issues. Following the twenty plus pages of discussion on this sad event I’m really stunned that this topic is spinning around and around an initial preconception of „load shift” or C.G. problem thrown in for our attention by somebody at a very early stage. After this momentum everybody’s mind is focused on this scenario. It would worth a psychological study in itself. What about dozens of other possible causes: pilot incapacitation, severe flight control malfunctions? (If my memory serves me well there was a cargo DC-8 accident in the US where a blasted rock vedged the elevator in a nose up position on takeoff. A pilot in a nearby parking lot eyewitnessed the whole event and described roughly the same wing rocking stall sequence!)
I think this whole topic is a good example why professional investigators are trained thoroughly to be able to ignore preconceptions and start every investigation open-minded and with a blank sheet of paper.