Cargo Crash at Bagram
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hval
As has been stated already on this thread, freighters that have been converted from passenger aircraft always have the stab tanks disabled. Not all passenger 747-400's have them fitted in the first place.
I don't know where you got this figure. The stab tank (when fitted) holds approximately 10,000kg of fuel.
As has been stated already on this thread, freighters that have been converted from passenger aircraft always have the stab tanks disabled. Not all passenger 747-400's have them fitted in the first place.
they can hold approximately 173,976 kg of fuel at 15C.
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MATELO,
Bastion airfield details:-
Runway length:- 3,500m x45.7m
Construction Type:- Concrete / asphalt
Altitude:- 855 m AMSL
Bagram airfield details
Runway length:- 3,602m x 45.7m
Construction type:- Concrete
Altitude:- 1,492 m AMSL
The 455 EOG/CC has approved the following acft to operate out of Bagram with the following weight restrictions: C17 - 237,228 kg; C5 - 368,317 kg; AN124 - 353,802 kg; B747 - 348,359 kg.
You can look up the weight restrictions for each taxiway and ramp for yourself. The information is there
Bastion airfield details:-
Runway length:- 3,500m x45.7m
Construction Type:- Concrete / asphalt
Altitude:- 855 m AMSL
Bagram airfield details
Runway length:- 3,602m x 45.7m
Construction type:- Concrete
Altitude:- 1,492 m AMSL
The 455 EOG/CC has approved the following acft to operate out of Bagram with the following weight restrictions: C17 - 237,228 kg; C5 - 368,317 kg; AN124 - 353,802 kg; B747 - 348,359 kg.
You can look up the weight restrictions for each taxiway and ramp for yourself. The information is there
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Airclues,
Thank you for your information. I missed the information on this aircraft not having these fuel tanks.
As for the mass of fuel it would appear that I have made an obvious, basic miscalculation. My excuse is that I ran out of fingers and toes, or that I can not multiply 0.804 x 12500.
Duh! My apologies. Glad someone can add
PS. Thanks also Clear_Prop
Thank you for your information. I missed the information on this aircraft not having these fuel tanks.
As for the mass of fuel it would appear that I have made an obvious, basic miscalculation. My excuse is that I ran out of fingers and toes, or that I can not multiply 0.804 x 12500.
Duh! My apologies. Glad someone can add
PS. Thanks also Clear_Prop
Last edited by hval; 4th May 2013 at 12:48. Reason: Forgot to thank Clear_Prop
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hval
I think that what MATELO was asking was, why would they fly 300nm in completed the wrong direction, just to pick up fuel? Many aircraft, including 747-400's have operated from Bastion to the UAE and, as far as I am aware, there is fuel available at Bastion. I don't think that this has any bearing on the cause of the crash, but it would be interesting to know the reason.
I think that what MATELO was asking was, why would they fly 300nm in completed the wrong direction, just to pick up fuel? Many aircraft, including 747-400's have operated from Bastion to the UAE and, as far as I am aware, there is fuel available at Bastion. I don't think that this has any bearing on the cause of the crash, but it would be interesting to know the reason.
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Airclues,
I guessed that might be what MATELO might have been alluding to. Since the same question had been asked previously I thought I would provide the information.
What is the fuel price differential? Also doesn't Bastion have fuel uplift limitations without prior authorisation?
I guessed that might be what MATELO might have been alluding to. Since the same question had been asked previously I thought I would provide the information.
What is the fuel price differential? Also doesn't Bastion have fuel uplift limitations without prior authorisation?
Last edited by hval; 4th May 2013 at 12:40.
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framer
I have never flown the 747. I would have thought that any incorrect hori stab setting would be able to be over ridden by manual forward yoke input as it is in other Boeings. This assumption leads me to think it more likely that the load shifted. Can a 747 pilot confirm that even with full nose up trim on the hori stab the forces can be over ridden with control inputs?
I have never flown the 747. I would have thought that any incorrect hori stab setting would be able to be over ridden by manual forward yoke input as it is in other Boeings. This assumption leads me to think it more likely that the load shifted. Can a 747 pilot confirm that even with full nose up trim on the hori stab the forces can be over ridden with control inputs?
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Well I'm not buying the high pitch angle story yet
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MATELO / Airclues / hval
It might interest/inform you to see my post 336 for some insight into some of the issues facing operations into/out of AF by civil carriers with diplomatic cargo.
It might interest/inform you to see my post 336 for some insight into some of the issues facing operations into/out of AF by civil carriers with diplomatic cargo.
GabonaStick
any idea what the pitch angle was in that video if it wasn't vertical?
it helps to understand the magnitude of error in that view
Well I'm not buying the high pitch angle story yet - at least not the numbers being thrown around. This video clearly shows how pitch angle can be badly misinterpreted by witnesses and hugely exaggerated on camera. Vertical it ain't.
it helps to understand the magnitude of error in that view
ALC747
From other posters I thought someone else had said that the engine cant between inboard and outboards on a B747 would cancel any thrust-pitchup ?
also since your statement "an aircraft" appears globaly inclusive
how about the CI A300-600 at TPE in the 90's
Just my penny's worth from someone who flies the B744F and also currently operates to Bagram and other Afghan airports.
1. There are no published tactical procedures. Just ATC, Jepp charts and common sense.
2. It is the load masters responsibility to ensure the correct loading and securing of all cargo. However, the Captain shall always check this, especially the military cargo for obvious reasons.
3. An incorrect stabiliser trim setting will trigger a takeoff warning as soon as the thrust levers are advanced.
4. Pilots should always have a ballpark figure for the takeoff CG calculation. Confirmed by the load sheet and experience.
5. Increasing thrust on an aircraft with under slung wing mounted engines will cause a pitch up moment. However, not to the extent that it will lead to a stall.
6. Stall recovery techniques should be practiced during recurrent training and the recovery technique should be one from muscle memory.
1. There are no published tactical procedures. Just ATC, Jepp charts and common sense.
2. It is the load masters responsibility to ensure the correct loading and securing of all cargo. However, the Captain shall always check this, especially the military cargo for obvious reasons.
3. An incorrect stabiliser trim setting will trigger a takeoff warning as soon as the thrust levers are advanced.
4. Pilots should always have a ballpark figure for the takeoff CG calculation. Confirmed by the load sheet and experience.
5. Increasing thrust on an aircraft with under slung wing mounted engines will cause a pitch up moment. However, not to the extent that it will lead to a stall.
6. Stall recovery techniques should be practiced during recurrent training and the recovery technique should be one from muscle memory.
also since your statement "an aircraft" appears globaly inclusive
how about the CI A300-600 at TPE in the 90's
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lomapaseo
There is a noticeable pitch/trim change on the 747 with changes of power. However, I don't think that this was a factor in this incident.
Airclues (747/744/744F, 1975 to 2007)
There is a noticeable pitch/trim change on the 747 with changes of power. However, I don't think that this was a factor in this incident.
Airclues (747/744/744F, 1975 to 2007)
the footage really is difficult to watch, but to appears that it may well become a very powerful tool to teach the importance of w&b one day.
cofg out of aft limits - by some margin - does seem a likely cause, but load shift does not seem that likely given it previous successful flight, plus bearing in mind the restraints are all designed to severe crash and extreme flight loads - i.e. 3/6/9g depending on philosophy - and not to the relatively benign loads seen during take off & climb in this case (just over 1g probably - well under the restraint limits).
one option - that also fits the National press release - is that some cargo - which would have been vital ballast to retain the cofg within limits - could have been removed from the front of the ac at bagram and the consequences somehow overlooked. none of the mraps would have needed to slide and the problem would have been obvious at rotate, which does seem to be the case here.
very sad. is there not a way to verify cofg limits statically - even approximately - through sensing the loads through the front/rear u/c legs? if the cause is as speculated above there might be an ALARP argument brewing as I can't see why this wouldn't be relatively easy to do from a technical point of view.
apologies if these points have been made before earlier.
cofg out of aft limits - by some margin - does seem a likely cause, but load shift does not seem that likely given it previous successful flight, plus bearing in mind the restraints are all designed to severe crash and extreme flight loads - i.e. 3/6/9g depending on philosophy - and not to the relatively benign loads seen during take off & climb in this case (just over 1g probably - well under the restraint limits).
one option - that also fits the National press release - is that some cargo - which would have been vital ballast to retain the cofg within limits - could have been removed from the front of the ac at bagram and the consequences somehow overlooked. none of the mraps would have needed to slide and the problem would have been obvious at rotate, which does seem to be the case here.
very sad. is there not a way to verify cofg limits statically - even approximately - through sensing the loads through the front/rear u/c legs? if the cause is as speculated above there might be an ALARP argument brewing as I can't see why this wouldn't be relatively easy to do from a technical point of view.
apologies if these points have been made before earlier.
Last edited by JFZ90; 4th May 2013 at 15:37.
Dog Tired
Apologies if you have seen this before from the Aviation Herald regarding the cargo:
Hradecky, created Monday, Apr 29th 2013 14:02Z, last updated Thursday, May 2nd 2013 21:58Z
A National Air Cargo Boeing 747-400 freighter on behalf of US Mobility Command, registration N949CA performing cargo flight N8-102 from Bagram (Afghanistan) to Dubai Al Maktoum (United Arab Emirates) with 7 crew and cargo consisting of 5 military vehicles, has crashed shortly after takeoff from Bagram Air Base's runway 03 at 15:30L (11:00Z) and erupted into flames near the end of the runway within the perimeter of the Air Base. All 7 crew are reported perished in the crash.
Afghan Authorities immediately denied claims that the crash of a large civilian cargo aircraft was the result of enemy activities. A large fire erupted after the aircraft impacted ground, it appears all crew have been killed.
Coalition Forces reported a civilian large cargo plane crashed shortly after takeoff, at the time of the accident there was no enemy activity around the aerodrome. Rescue and Recovery efforts are under way, the Air Base is currently locked down and the aerodrome is closed.
National Air Cargo confirmed their aircraft N949CA with 7 crew, 4 pilots, 2 mechanics and a load master - initial information had been 8 crew -crashed at Bagram. The airline later added, that the aircraft had been loaded with all cargo in Camp Bastion (Afghanistan, about 300nm southwest of Bagram), the cargo had been inspected at Camp Bastion, the aircraft subsequently positioned to Bagram for a refuelling stop with no difficulty, no cargo was added or removed, however, the cargo was again inspected before the aircraft departed for the leg to Dubai Al Maktoum.
Hradecky, created Monday, Apr 29th 2013 14:02Z, last updated Thursday, May 2nd 2013 21:58Z
A National Air Cargo Boeing 747-400 freighter on behalf of US Mobility Command, registration N949CA performing cargo flight N8-102 from Bagram (Afghanistan) to Dubai Al Maktoum (United Arab Emirates) with 7 crew and cargo consisting of 5 military vehicles, has crashed shortly after takeoff from Bagram Air Base's runway 03 at 15:30L (11:00Z) and erupted into flames near the end of the runway within the perimeter of the Air Base. All 7 crew are reported perished in the crash.
Afghan Authorities immediately denied claims that the crash of a large civilian cargo aircraft was the result of enemy activities. A large fire erupted after the aircraft impacted ground, it appears all crew have been killed.
Coalition Forces reported a civilian large cargo plane crashed shortly after takeoff, at the time of the accident there was no enemy activity around the aerodrome. Rescue and Recovery efforts are under way, the Air Base is currently locked down and the aerodrome is closed.
National Air Cargo confirmed their aircraft N949CA with 7 crew, 4 pilots, 2 mechanics and a load master - initial information had been 8 crew -crashed at Bagram. The airline later added, that the aircraft had been loaded with all cargo in Camp Bastion (Afghanistan, about 300nm southwest of Bagram), the cargo had been inspected at Camp Bastion, the aircraft subsequently positioned to Bagram for a refuelling stop with no difficulty, no cargo was added or removed, however, the cargo was again inspected before the aircraft departed for the leg to Dubai Al Maktoum.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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JFZ -"sensing the loads through the front/rear u/c legs"- it is all in this thread if you look. As is the loading statement from the airline itself. There is no information yet on fuelling but the leg sensor should pick that up as I understand it.
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Clear Prop
My experience is turnrounds in Afghan are never quick, if the aircraft did come from Europe then we could reasonably expect the FDP to be long??
These are professional civilian flight crews and they don't particularly like to crew rest in war zones, so it is quite normal to get in, load up and get out, then crew rest in nearby civilised areas like UAE, or wherever the remaining FDP/Fuel will let them get to.
Last edited by Mr Angry from Purley; 4th May 2013 at 17:18.
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: From other posters I thought someone else had said that the engine cant between inboard and outboards on a B747 would cancel any thrust-pitchup ?
I did a back-of-envelope trig calculation which suggested it's approaching 30deg from line-of-sight, then you have to add another few degrees for the elevation of the line-of-sight from ground.
Afterwards I looked through the comments in the video, and there's one from the guy who took the footage saying the climb was about 45deg. So we're both in the same ballpark - pretty sharp ascent but nothing as dramatic as it seems.
Afterwards I looked through the comments in the video, and there's one from the guy who took the footage saying the climb was about 45deg. So we're both in the same ballpark - pretty sharp ascent but nothing as dramatic as it seems.
I'll keep that in mind for future reference basis
I'll try to think in solid geomentry basis with a little bit of Cad-cam
