Adam Air B737-400 fatal crash January 2007

[PK-KAR]

V1,
Many are now speaking, and previously expected, no one would listen until there is a smoking hole in the ground somewhere. My friend left Adam because they shunned him after he raised safety concerns, but thankfully he wasn't sued, because he was type rated when he came in, so the contract bond was negligeable.
Another friend left Adam after almost being killed on an unreported accident.
Another left as soon as his bond period was over.
Another friend left because she ended up in hospital with typhoid & fatigue thanks to >100hrs a month flying (let alone duty), and 6-1 roster.

Many of them have preferred to just leave and not say anything, the reason is that, employment is not easy over here nowadays, but this company abused it. One by one people will break and leave... Talking would just make them and their families suffer, and employment in the industry will be harder.

As for me, I never was in Adam, hence the options of taking it further safely was limited, and I'd put those who were talking at an even greater risk. As you said, it's everyone's choice, and not an easy choice it is. Especially those pilots with a huge contract bond, a mortgage and a wife with three kids to feed... a lawsuit for some silly reason because he left the company would put them out on the streets, literally!

I'd leave you with a quote from one who worked in Adam tried to speak up, but then realised it was best to leave than fight a loosing battle... Even he feels saddened.

Inallilahi KKW.

I touched you many times . I reduce your load with my own bare hand due to your engine condition at that time. I yell at another person at that time because I know you weren't fit to fly. I re-calculated your plan because you can not legally fly RVSM airspace sometimes. I don't mind loosing my job at that time as long as you, the crews, the passangers, are save and sound.

The engineers, operations personnel, crew, we all know that you need to rest. We all know that you are tired.
Too tired to fly. Too tired to do anything. All you need is just a little bit of Tender Loving Care from the "upper hands."

No more the non-bright-couloured PKKKW. You are one of a kind. In the sea of oranges, you are the brightest one.
You are gone now. Taking all the crews and the passangers with you.

I am sorry. I am very sorry for not being to be able to protect you anymore. I wasn't there at the time. I was unable to protect you, the crews, and the passangers. Now you are gone...

My heart is always with you... I'll see you when my time comes

Sigh...

God Bless Them.

PK-KAR

[V1&urRockin]

Lost&Gone

Thank you for replying so quickly...It grieves me deeply to read all of this...everyone knew that it was just a matter of time till this aircraft would have fallen from the sky..
I can also understand the plight of all the people employed at this company who have families to feed and careers to pursue..but amongst all this corruption there must be a slight chance of turning the tables on this company ..there must be a higher authority who will investigate this affair.
As for the quote from your friend...he must be feeling distressed at this incident..but people are dead ..the aircraft gone ..nothing will bring them back.But future incidents must be prevented.
It is time to grieve and take justice for the deceased and for all the harm this company has caused to its employs and to your friends.

Inallilahi Wanilehi Rajiun.

[A380lover]

Ok what are we speaking about here, we are not speaking about a bloody bus which can stop by the side of the road if there is a problem. My god i think that in french it's call" non assistance à personnes en danger", I am pretty sure that a lot of persons who where knowing before would have never allowed a friend or a member of his family to climb in such a crap aircraft in such a crap company. Thank god i am not in this situation so i don't know how i would have reacted but as a pilot i know that my reaction must not be like this one otherwise I would be f*** with conscience and then i would prefer to be a bus driver.

[theamrad]

Originally Posted by Tee Emm

With some ethnic cultures it is a fact of life and at the very minimum a reasonable bet, that a jet upset due severe turbulence IMC at high altitude would result in loss of control if only because realistic unusual attitude recovery training from extreme attitudes is not covered in their simulator training.

Throw in possible dual flame-outs - and subsequent intricate QRH procedures required - as has happened in the past in the CFM 56 engines (some may remember the other Indonesian 737 that had a double engine failure in heavy weather and was fortunate enough to dead stick into a river bed with minimum casualties) - and unless the crew were coldly professional, calm and collected (not a normal characteristic of some cultures) then the sad ending was inevitable.

Instead of making ill-formulated speculation that the cause of this accident was caused by the ethnicity of the pilots, passengers, country in which the accident took place,etc,etc, you might spend your time better by watching "big brother" and the behaviour of some of your equally racist compatriots at the moment.

If I'd ever been stuck as a passenger in the same situation as those in Garuda flight 421 - I'd be more than happy to have had INDONESIAN pilots in control: Loss of both engines, failure at restart attempts, TS with heavy rain and IMC down to 8000 ft, SUCCESFUL ditching with NO OTHER option available in that area - only 1 (INDIRECT) fatality. I call that admirable at the least - some might even say possibly a "characteristic of 'their' culture"!

As for the pilots who face future proceedings in Indonesia (for doing the right thing)- I genuinely wish you the the best of luck dan saya harap pengadilan mampu bersikap adil dalam mengambil keputusan - bebas dari tekanan politik yang mungkin menyertai. I hope the relatives of ft574 find peace soon and have their questions answered ultimately. We can only hope that this will be the final accident to make the regulatory authorities (and moreso government/certain politicians) wake up!

[A37575]

Relax Theamrad old chap. The points made by Tee Emm are borne out by numerous incidents and accidents in the SE Asian region over the past decades. Of course it is speculation. Would you prefer zero discussion on Pprune pages - a sort of information black-out from which pilots learn nothing.
It is called freedom of expression - something very much frowned upon in some cultures.

[theamrad]

Naturally I would want discussion on these pages, after all that's what there here for. Even though never posting before, I've been reading here on a wide range of issues for quite a while. Obviously discussion here helps in many ways - and biven me personally a greater insight on many issues.

But there's one hell of a difference between criticism of pilot training/suitability, non-enforcement of regulations, lack of politicial will to ensure safety to the travelling public (in any country)etc; and making sweeping generalisations based on ethnicity and not fact. Remarks like that don't point to a valid criticism of pratices - but nothing more than a statement of fact that "certain cultures" are not even capable of practising them. That's racist bigotry - NOT freedom of expression.

As for assumptions about pilot training - am I supposed to assume that every pilot not belonging to "some ethnic cultures" have had completely adequate upset recovery training - if so it's news to me - and I'm sure to a good few others besides. I can remember quite a few accident reports pertaining to US and European airlines citing inadequate pilot training as factors.

While many of the posts here are highly critical of the situation with Adamair - this is criticism that I think is more than welcome and well placed based on past history - especially from those who are Indonesian or expats who have worked there and know where the real fault lies ( and therefore what they are talking about). But I think that this criticism is made with the hope of bringing change - not just slagging off all Indonesians.
As for being professional, calm and collected - my personal experience of Indonesians in general versus any other countrys' inhabitants rates them pretty near the top - especially at calm and collected. And, after all 17 pilots resigned last year en-mass (with full knowledge of the potential consequences) - I guess they weren't being professional, since in the opinion of Tee Emm they belong to a culture which isn't capable of excercising professionalism.

Freedom of expression is not freedom to abuse. And while we're on the subject momentarily - if someone was to try, for example, denying the holocaust in Austria or a few other European countries - the "Freedom of Expression being a pillar of Westerm democracy" waffle won't be a valid excuse/reason when they're prosecuted.

I don't want to discuss this particular matter any further here - purely for the reason that I've made my point and i think this is going way of the vein of interest for the matter at hand and most contributors.

[Wizofoz]

Loss of both engines, failure at restart attempts,

Err..... Loss of both engines due to deliberate penetration of a CB- Perhaps not the best example of superior Asian airmanship...

[Charlie Hotel Xray]

OMG - Adam Air

Adam Air is also on my IWNFWT * list!

The posts above show what a terrible record they have.

* I Will Never Fly With Them

[PK-KAR]

Well, GA421 was a case of entering a MilZone with little leeway eitherside. If I remember correctly they did not fly into a CB, but encountered heavy precipitation along/near the "Purwo Corridor" (which is rarely a nice experience in monsoon season). After the incident CFM issued a bulletin regarding the limitations in precipitation.

Whether that's bad airmanship or not, I'm not here to decide... wasn't there when it happened.

PK-KAR

[PK-KAR]

CHX,
IWNFT list? I got them on the same list, but my "W" is "Would" instead of "Will"... *evil grin*

My former company tried to force me to fly on Adam on cost grounds, I flatly replied "feel free to fire me, otherwise, put me on a different airline." Trip aborted instead! LOL

PK-KAR

[barit1]

Originally Posted by theamrad

...
But there's one hell of a difference between criticism of pilot training/suitability, non-enforcement of regulations, lack of politicial will to ensure safety to the travelling public (in any country)etc; and making sweeping generalisations based on ethnicity and not fact. Remarks like that don't point to a valid criticism of pratices - but nothing more than a statement of fact that "certain cultures" are not even capable of practising them. That's racist bigotry - NOT freedom of expression...

Well put. The culture of professional aviation requires thorough top-down and bottom-up inclusiveness. If the national will allows corner-cutting, and isn't requiring accountability at every level of its airlines, the result is sadly predictable.

One wonders if Mr. Agung Laksono flies in private aircraft maintained to the same -- ummm -- standard as his airline?

[EY777]

Pre-conceived bigotry

Perhaps not the best example of superior Asian airmanship

Obviously Wizofoz, you have never flown in the tropics in South East Asia when monsoon is in full swing.For one small blip in safety record wherever that may be, there are numerous others in some other part of the globe.....,luckily accident investigators are more objective than basing their investigation on ethnic/racial lines.
Again, let the investigators do their job.Any stuff ups will be made known & we (the professional pilots) will be wiser about it.

[lomapaseo]

I'm bothered by the unsubstantiated and speculative linkage of past history with this accident.

There is very little facts available to us at this point and if one is going to openly link past history with this accident, then please share with us your expertise that not only raises the speculative possibility (speculation) but also the probability which requires expertise to sustain in a discussion.

I have seen no serious arguments at this point for a probable cause.

Regarding the flameout scenario. Were not all the previous events associated with reduced power approaches where the engines have more difficulty in processing precip?

[ABX]

PK, that summary is one of the scariest things I have ever read!

Thank you for posting it, people should know.

ABX

Ps. I think I might start a List like CHX!

[Wizofoz]

Obviously Wizofoz, you have never flown in the tropics in South East Asia when monsoon is in full swing.

Writting this from SIN actually!!

let the investigators do their job

Based my comment on the NTSB report as it happened.

I did not mean this to sound like a general swipe at Asian pilots. I know and have flown with many excellent pilots of many nationalities. It was, however, a response to theamrad's post which suggested the Garuda 737 crash was an example of great airmanship. It seems they did a sterling job once the flame=out occured, but got in the situation by flying through a very small gap between two very big CBs- There but for the grace of god, sure, but it still is not a shining example of great airmanship.

[PK-KAR]

I thought this would be interesting to know...

Well, just today, Adam Air was reported to have gone to one of the most critical TV stations, and said they were and had a plan for a new PR campaign and would like to put it on that station and pay for it, but would like that station if possible to not view Adam Air unfavourably...

The silly thing was... they went not to the commercial office or the management, but went to the news section! So it received a NICE coverage... with one anchor saying... "feel free to pay for the advert slots, but we'll still air what we find.."

Major embarrassement...

The link is here, but Indonesian only...
http://www.liputan6.com/view/3,13597...169051059.html

On another front, that TV station found out that Adam Air only has 1/4 of the staff and crew covered by the compulsory social security insurance... and guess what, they asked the social security insurance (Jamsostek) if the crew were covered and the reply was, none of their names are on the program... This "lapse" of social security cover was denied by Adam... unsurprisingly.

And again, the 17 pilots that were sued by Adam is preparing to countersue with allegations that their contracts had been changed. The evidence issued in court was different from the one they had, and Adam Air denied it and is now also preparing a counter-countersuit alleging the 17 pilots had instead submitted altered/forged contracts... The investigation from the TV channel revealed the deficiencies in the documents used by Adam... ie: possibly invalidating the contract.

Oh well, on another front... the guy in Adam heading the disaster coordination for this accident doesn't even know if Adam had 1 or 2 aircraft painted in white, and he's the commercial director... I guess he never sees his aircrafts.

Interesting that the media coverage on this is continuing, and that SCTV has exposed a heck of a lot on Adam, some more so than the dirt we can find through the rumour network...

Even after writing all that was written, I'm stiff baffled at what these guys have exposed on Adam... amazing stuff...

PK-KAR

[LLuke]

If it wasn't for this disaster, I'd have called it funny. Glad to hear the news dept. chose for integrity. Hope the goverment will take its responsabilities too.

[Weizenjaeger]

When I read that a fisherman (named Bakri) found a piece the tail stabiliser, I assumed that he had found it at sea.

I now read reports that he found it 300 meters from the beach, along a roadside, on Tuesday January 9.

Here is one such report.

Try Goggle search words: Bakri Air Adam Fisherman

[EY777]

Then Wizofoz you should have written bad & poor airmanship & not associate it with any gender,race or genetic pool.

As you have now known there are bad apples in any group of humans, just generalising someone's mistake & tar a whole community,society or even genetic makeup is very misleading

As you're in SIN, then you would know that dodging CB's are part & parcel of the flying job here.What not many people don't know is the unpredictability of those CB's to pour their guts out even when you're well clear of them,not to mention the associated windshears that come with them.What we now learned from the NTSB report with ref to the GA421 is that all operators of the said a/c have to change their operating procedures when entering heavy precipitation....which before was never in any manual & the manufacturer of the engine did not anticipate to happen.But like you so aptly said

There but for the grace of god,

[PK-KAR]

Wizen,
That's odd, he stated to the news media here that he found it in the water... unless I am mistaken, but I just saw it again last night on Metro, and a trace back to SCTV's sites mentioned water too IIRC...

PK-KAR