Austrian vs Eurowings
One more addition.
If You are looking for Your value in the pilots market, i. e. if You intend to change companies, go to the sandbox (for information on how wise this choice would be, head on over to the corresponding section on here) or prefer the expat life, the Airbus it is, no doubt about this.
However, if You are looking to stay in a solid company or group of the same, which is LH and its subsidiaries, come to OS. Consider the longevity of some of LHs ideas, look at LH Italia or Jade Cargo for example, and then think about how wise it is to be associated with Germanwings. At OS, You are at a legacy carrier (although there are internal problems galore), have the option to fly for 2 years, expect a reasonably quick jet rating, and after 2 years, You can still make Your choice between whatever may be on offer within the company.
If You are looking for Your value in the pilots market, i. e. if You intend to change companies, go to the sandbox (for information on how wise this choice would be, head on over to the corresponding section on here) or prefer the expat life, the Airbus it is, no doubt about this.
However, if You are looking to stay in a solid company or group of the same, which is LH and its subsidiaries, come to OS. Consider the longevity of some of LHs ideas, look at LH Italia or Jade Cargo for example, and then think about how wise it is to be associated with Germanwings. At OS, You are at a legacy carrier (although there are internal problems galore), have the option to fly for 2 years, expect a reasonably quick jet rating, and after 2 years, You can still make Your choice between whatever may be on offer within the company.
Last edited by Tu.114; 11th Sep 2016 at 12:57.
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Take the A320 job. Since both contracts are limited two years, you'll be much desirable in the market with 1500hrs on A320 than with on Dash 8. Just look on any pilots jobs website and see how many companies are looking for TP pilots and how many doors does A320 rating with some hours open...
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Having flown both, for the love of all things holy, take the Dash job.
Legacy carrier, flying interesting routes, on an aircraft that's enjoyable to fly. Or flying monotonous routes, in a boring aircraft, for hours on end, on a low cost roster, knowing you're undercutting every Lufthansa pilot while you do it.
The choice is simple.
Take the turbo prop time, enjoy it, and enjoy Vienna. In a few years time you can get jet at Austrian, look back fondly at the lessons you learnt on a TP, and then maybe after that start looking back home.
Flying the Airbus straight from school, versus flying a turbo prop first, there's really no contest on who will have the more rounded flying education and core handling skills.
Legacy carrier, flying interesting routes, on an aircraft that's enjoyable to fly. Or flying monotonous routes, in a boring aircraft, for hours on end, on a low cost roster, knowing you're undercutting every Lufthansa pilot while you do it.
The choice is simple.
Take the turbo prop time, enjoy it, and enjoy Vienna. In a few years time you can get jet at Austrian, look back fondly at the lessons you learnt on a TP, and then maybe after that start looking back home.
Flying the Airbus straight from school, versus flying a turbo prop first, there's really no contest on who will have the more rounded flying education and core handling skills.
Sure, I would love to fly decent rosters out of very livable Central European base for legacy carrier of the glorious past and bright future, that treats its employees so nicely that A340 flying chef clears close to 3000€ take-home and accepts pilots from as far afield as South Africa.
Problem is, I'm talking about Austrian of ten years ago. By the time I got rid of all the bonding and got myself ready to cross over, Austrian downsized and suddenly found my age and passport quite unattractive.
IMHO, Austrian today is just a part of Lufthansa Group which will go anywhere LG management pleases, even if it takes playing two group's Vienna based brands against each other. Good news is that OP remains good company boy whichever side he chooses.
Problem is, I'm talking about Austrian of ten years ago. By the time I got rid of all the bonding and got myself ready to cross over, Austrian downsized and suddenly found my age and passport quite unattractive.
IMHO, Austrian today is just a part of Lufthansa Group which will go anywhere LG management pleases, even if it takes playing two group's Vienna based brands against each other. Good news is that OP remains good company boy whichever side he chooses.
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Really, thank you all for your feedback - and its more obvious than ever, that there is no right or wrong decision... It's more or less 50:50 among the jet vs TP folks around this thread, as if I had expected something else.
No clue what I am going to do. I hate the thought flying for EW, but I also hate the thought of missing out a chance to fly back in Germany in 2 years or so, just because I have no A320 TR.
I keep you updated.
No clue what I am going to do. I hate the thought flying for EW, but I also hate the thought of missing out a chance to fly back in Germany in 2 years or so, just because I have no A320 TR.
I keep you updated.
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Hello Mr NFF 
!
To start off, I just have to give you my honest opinion. I understand why you guys are like you are. Not accepting flightdeck jobs, while others would kill for a position like yours. You were promised the KTV (Lufthansa Konzerntarifvertrag = Golden Ticket) and you basically got nothing of what you were promised. So of course, you are now trying to get as much as possible out of your current situation. On the other hand, it doesn't take much brains to figure out that LH will go down the drains, if they continue handing out those contracts. But I guess that's not what the union (VC) is telling you
.
Anyway. It's like someone in this thread told before me. What company to go for is, regarding the rating, a no-brainer. Eurowings! Screw the payment. In 2-3 years you'll have enough hours to apply to any A319/20/21 operator in Europe/Middle-East. To continue this thought. With an A320 rating you will have all of Airbus basically opened to you. An A330/340 rating will just be a differential training and not a complete new rating.
On the other hand. If you chose the Dash, you will be stuck in Turbo-Prop-Land until AUA gives you the opportunity to move onto a Jet.
!To start off, I just have to give you my honest opinion. I understand why you guys are like you are. Not accepting flightdeck jobs, while others would kill for a position like yours. You were promised the KTV (Lufthansa Konzerntarifvertrag = Golden Ticket) and you basically got nothing of what you were promised. So of course, you are now trying to get as much as possible out of your current situation. On the other hand, it doesn't take much brains to figure out that LH will go down the drains, if they continue handing out those contracts. But I guess that's not what the union (VC) is telling you
. Anyway. It's like someone in this thread told before me. What company to go for is, regarding the rating, a no-brainer. Eurowings! Screw the payment. In 2-3 years you'll have enough hours to apply to any A319/20/21 operator in Europe/Middle-East. To continue this thought. With an A320 rating you will have all of Airbus basically opened to you. An A330/340 rating will just be a differential training and not a complete new rating.
On the other hand. If you chose the Dash, you will be stuck in Turbo-Prop-Land until AUA gives you the opportunity to move onto a Jet.
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Well, it is very unlikely that you will get a job in Germany in 2-3 years. In Eurowings these position will be taken by the GWI guys and even if, you would be the last in line. Other option GMI??? Not really if you don't wanna fly for EWE. So I would take into account that you won't get back to Germany very soon.
Anyway, Vienna is a great place to live.
If you get the chance to stay with OS longer than the 2 years, take that job. The Dash is the best a/c for you to learn to fly, the A320 is a very good rating to have, but you learn how to setup the FMS. OS is a network carrier, you will get the chance to fly jet sooner or later, EMB and maybe in a few years even long haul on a 767. OS is short of pilots, so there will be quite a lot of movement. Have a look at the lastest agreement.
So if you are planning a long term career, take the Dash, if you want to move on quickly, like the middle east, take the 320. Anyway, chances to come back to Germany are very low, so don't focus too much on that.
BTW. I have flown Dash-8 and A320 and I lived in Vienna, so know what I am talking about.
Anyway, Vienna is a great place to live.
If you get the chance to stay with OS longer than the 2 years, take that job. The Dash is the best a/c for you to learn to fly, the A320 is a very good rating to have, but you learn how to setup the FMS. OS is a network carrier, you will get the chance to fly jet sooner or later, EMB and maybe in a few years even long haul on a 767. OS is short of pilots, so there will be quite a lot of movement. Have a look at the lastest agreement.
So if you are planning a long term career, take the Dash, if you want to move on quickly, like the middle east, take the 320. Anyway, chances to come back to Germany are very low, so don't focus too much on that.
BTW. I have flown Dash-8 and A320 and I lived in Vienna, so know what I am talking about.
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I would consider Austrian the better option. Serveral points why: firstly you will have a chance of career progression - especially with the collective labour agreement just signed last week. Dash FOs are now being trained on the Embraers even with possibilities to later join the longhaul fleet.
Also, since living in Hamburg is essential for you - dont forget about standby tickets. AFAIK Austrian have quite good ID agreements, so it shouldnt be any problem to get home for you. Eurowings on the other hand... i stand to be corrected but at least according to ppjn they dont have any.
Furthermore, with LH aquiring all off-hub routes from airberlin later this year, the chances of eurowings basing their own 320s in HAM in the near future dont really seem to be too high..
Also, since living in Hamburg is essential for you - dont forget about standby tickets. AFAIK Austrian have quite good ID agreements, so it shouldnt be any problem to get home for you. Eurowings on the other hand... i stand to be corrected but at least according to ppjn they dont have any.
Furthermore, with LH aquiring all off-hub routes from airberlin later this year, the chances of eurowings basing their own 320s in HAM in the near future dont really seem to be too high..
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Nobody can predict what will happen in the future - especially in this volatile industry. To make this type of decision, one needs to understand and then prioritize/rank the decision criteria...
Location seems to be one of the top criteria. With EW, he has a decent chance of ultimately returning to Germany which evidently is very important to him. With OS, there is a possibility he may not get the chance to return and live in the Hamburg area if he does not get the call from LH in a few years to transfer over (uncertain timeframe). In that case, EW makes more sense if he has more of a likelihood of returning to Germany. Plus he gets a more marketable type rating with the Airbus.
That is how I would evaluate the decision - to each his/her own...
Location seems to be one of the top criteria. With EW, he has a decent chance of ultimately returning to Germany which evidently is very important to him. With OS, there is a possibility he may not get the chance to return and live in the Hamburg area if he does not get the call from LH in a few years to transfer over (uncertain timeframe). In that case, EW makes more sense if he has more of a likelihood of returning to Germany. Plus he gets a more marketable type rating with the Airbus.
That is how I would evaluate the decision - to each his/her own...
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For the love of all that is good in this world - Austrian! IMO, this is such a no-brainer that I don't even understand why there is a dilemma. Legacy carrier vs undermining one's own profession. Go for the Dash!
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I wouldn't give to much hope in german bases with Eurowings Europe. Their plan is to employ crews outside of Germany and avoid german labour rights.
I am always surprised when people consider facts for the future of a company that totally base on rumors and know one knows if it ever gonna happen.
At the moment Eurowings Europe has no base in Germany and no-one knows if they ever will have a base in Germany, as those positions are taken by Eurowings Deutschland and Germanwings. Some people mistake Eurowings Europe with the Eurowings platform.
So you might be gambling on a game that is already lost.
I am always surprised when people consider facts for the future of a company that totally base on rumors and know one knows if it ever gonna happen.
At the moment Eurowings Europe has no base in Germany and no-one knows if they ever will have a base in Germany, as those positions are taken by Eurowings Deutschland and Germanwings. Some people mistake Eurowings Europe with the Eurowings platform.
So you might be gambling on a game that is already lost.
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Couldn't agree more semmern! Austrian too good to turn down long term. Plus TP experience is underrated!
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The (new and old) Austrian CLA gives Dash 8 pilots a 50% share of all new jet positions after five years on the Dash. While the Dash is not glamorous and many airlines favour jet experience, you'll learn a lot of hand flying and technique on the Dash that an Airbus won't teach you. Those pilots moving up from the Dash 8 now tell that they initially considered their Dash posting disappointing (with their flying school peers going straight to the Airbus) but now wouldn't trade their Dash experiences. Once you're on an Airbus you won't get to places like Lugano or Bolzano at all and even Innsbruck is not that common....
As everything, this is a snapshot it is hard to forecast, especially about the future
P.S.: Don't fret about flying a "lame" turboprop. The Q400 is quite hot and a jet departing after one will need some time to catch up.
As everything, this is a snapshot it is hard to forecast, especially about the future
P.S.: Don't fret about flying a "lame" turboprop. The Q400 is quite hot and a jet departing after one will need some time to catch up.
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I know you're a newbie, but PLEASE don't make the newbie mistake of being blinded by the jet bling bling.
No matter what aircraft type - go legacy carrier! Go to Austrian! It doesn't matter what aircraft you fly, they have Dashs, Embraers, Boeings, Airbuses... you'll get a jet eventually, and as people said, they are ridiculously short of pilots. You'll get a contract extension if you want.
Look at it long term. Most low cost pilots want to move to a major eventually (Easy / Ryanair to British, Vueling to Iberia, Transavia to KLM, etc...) - if you can START at a flag carrier, do so.
Better stability, better union protection, better influence on rostering, better pay, better everything. You'll have plenty of layovers to chain your working days together, which also makes commuting to HAM easier.
Oh and just food for thought:
We've had a few NFFs in our company (flag carrier but not Austrian) for a few years. They all thought of it as a short-term solution and after a few years they'd go home, find another job.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it probably won't happen. Most of them are still here or somewhere else, but still not home. What other options do you have in Germany that are better than an Austrian flag carrier contract?
- Lufthansa? not gonna happen
- Condor? not gonna happen
- Aeorlogic? not really better...
What else?
--
Bottom line: Pilot jobs are not always where your home is. Prioritise... you wanna be home or you want a good job? Most of the people I know commute. By car, train and plane. Do the same if you can't or don't want to permanently relocate. Vienna is a super-gorgeous city with great people, cheap prices and great culture. Consider it.
If you don't want to live there, commute. Flights are plenty and it's a one-hour leg home.
If you wanna live and work home... go apply at Sylt Air.
No matter what aircraft type - go legacy carrier! Go to Austrian! It doesn't matter what aircraft you fly, they have Dashs, Embraers, Boeings, Airbuses... you'll get a jet eventually, and as people said, they are ridiculously short of pilots. You'll get a contract extension if you want.
Look at it long term. Most low cost pilots want to move to a major eventually (Easy / Ryanair to British, Vueling to Iberia, Transavia to KLM, etc...) - if you can START at a flag carrier, do so.
Better stability, better union protection, better influence on rostering, better pay, better everything. You'll have plenty of layovers to chain your working days together, which also makes commuting to HAM easier.
Oh and just food for thought:
We've had a few NFFs in our company (flag carrier but not Austrian) for a few years. They all thought of it as a short-term solution and after a few years they'd go home, find another job.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it probably won't happen. Most of them are still here or somewhere else, but still not home. What other options do you have in Germany that are better than an Austrian flag carrier contract?
- Lufthansa? not gonna happen
- Condor? not gonna happen
- Aeorlogic? not really better...
What else?
--
Bottom line: Pilot jobs are not always where your home is. Prioritise... you wanna be home or you want a good job? Most of the people I know commute. By car, train and plane. Do the same if you can't or don't want to permanently relocate. Vienna is a super-gorgeous city with great people, cheap prices and great culture. Consider it.
If you don't want to live there, commute. Flights are plenty and it's a one-hour leg home.
If you wanna live and work home... go apply at Sylt Air.
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Oh, and as you mentioned it... I also know one or two NFFs who are at Austrian. One on the 320, one on the Dash. They both enjoy it very much.
I know you wanted LH. Eurowings exists to undermine your fellow pilots and their conditions at the other Lufthansa Group airlines. They are bad for the industry and everyone's terms and conditions. Don't be a part of that. Go to OS.
I know you wanted LH. Eurowings exists to undermine your fellow pilots and their conditions at the other Lufthansa Group airlines. They are bad for the industry and everyone's terms and conditions. Don't be a part of that. Go to OS.
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For what it's worth, I know a guy who started on the Dash in Austrian, then moved via the Fokker and A320 to the 777 where he is now. So you are by no means locked to one type for the rest of your career.
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The question is what happens after the 2 years? With an A320 type rating and some hours it's easier to find a job then with the Dash rating.
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The question is what happens after the 2 years? With an A320 type rating and some hours it's easier to find a job then with the Dash rating.
This is not an aircraft decision, this is an employer decision. Do you want to choose your employer on the basis that you MAYBE have better job chances with another potential employer when you leave, or do you want to choose the BETTER employer of the two that you KNOW you could work for NOW?
In German there's a saying:
"Lieber den Spatzen in der Hand als die Taube auf dem Dach." - I think mr. NFF will understand.
Nobody knows whether you're even able to get another job in two years time, or where, or with which qualifications. Just not possible. FYI, even if you do get an A320 rating... there'll be hundreds of other pilots with the same one, and with way more hours on type than you.
Bottom line again... choose your employer, not your aircraft type. Why do you think all the fancy pilots with A380 / B777 / A350 ratings want to come back to Europe from the sand pit and Asia? I tell you why... because it doesn't matter WHAT you fly, it matters what terms and conditions and what stability you have while doing so!
I don't know your personal obligations in Hamburg, but be careful if you decide on Austrian and/or Vienna... you might just like it and want to stick around!
