I'm thinking of ejecting. Any last hail Marys out there?
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Lots of good posts on this thread.
Tank2Engine …."How on earth do they (management) want us to settle down, when they constantly threaten us with outsourcing and/or base closures, leaving us not much choice other than staying flexible and/or voting with our feet?"
Voting with your feet is not encouraged because of the seniority systems that we hang on to. Going to the bottom of the pile in terms of upgrade and salary renders walking out (unless you leave altogether) not an option. One of the reasons so few if any Mon FOs have gone to UK competitors.
Tank2Engine …."How on earth do they (management) want us to settle down, when they constantly threaten us with outsourcing and/or base closures, leaving us not much choice other than staying flexible and/or voting with our feet?"
Voting with your feet is not encouraged because of the seniority systems that we hang on to. Going to the bottom of the pile in terms of upgrade and salary renders walking out (unless you leave altogether) not an option. One of the reasons so few if any Mon FOs have gone to UK competitors.
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Voting with your feet is not encouraged because of the seniority systems that we hang on to. Going to the bottom of the pile in terms of upgrade and salary renders walking out (unless you leave altogether) not an option. One of the reasons so few if any Mon FOs have gone to UK competitors.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't, and with that in mind I completely understand why some people have had more enough of this industry.
Money, prestige and the occasional take off and landing are not everything in life, and you can also get your adrenaline or aviation kick from riding your motorbike, flying a glider (cheap!) or going for a weekend of rock climbing with friends.
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Employee Turnover: Push Factors and Pull Factors
Search of economic business studies regarding employee retention.
Seniority destroys pull factors, airline employers have no doubt studied push and pull factors at university and probably laugh their heads off talking about it with their chums!
If you think about it we have PUSH (out of current work) and seniority means PUSH BACK from any potential new employer FFS!
Anyone fancy a study regarding PUSH PULL factors in the pilot workforce, perhaps the beginning of self regulation mentioned earlier.
If you think carefully about the various factors that cause an employee to leave their current employer, it is quite easy to see that you two categories: push factors and pull factors.
Pull factors are those reasons that attract the person to a new place of work. So in this category we would have the likes of a better paying job, a career advancement opportunity that they wouldn't have got in the short term had they stayed with their present employer, and so on.
Push factors are aspects that drive the employee towards the exit door. They make the person want to leave, make them start thinking about other options, about talking to recruiters, looking at the job ads in the paper, on the internet etc. In some instances employees will even go so far as to leave without a new job lined-up.
You just have to accept that pull factors are going to exist. From time to time competitors will make offers to some of your employees that you simply cannot match. Job opportunities will arise that are so attractive that the employee is almost certain to leave.
Pull factors are those reasons that attract the person to a new place of work. So in this category we would have the likes of a better paying job, a career advancement opportunity that they wouldn't have got in the short term had they stayed with their present employer, and so on.
Push factors are aspects that drive the employee towards the exit door. They make the person want to leave, make them start thinking about other options, about talking to recruiters, looking at the job ads in the paper, on the internet etc. In some instances employees will even go so far as to leave without a new job lined-up.
You just have to accept that pull factors are going to exist. From time to time competitors will make offers to some of your employees that you simply cannot match. Job opportunities will arise that are so attractive that the employee is almost certain to leave.
If you think about it we have PUSH (out of current work) and seniority means PUSH BACK from any potential new employer FFS!
Anyone fancy a study regarding PUSH PULL factors in the pilot workforce, perhaps the beginning of self regulation mentioned earlier.
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Hello all,
I just thought Id add my input. My post isn't a direct reply to anybody but more so and hopefully a touch of inspiration.
Firstly in life id like to think there is no right or wrong when it comes to your personal situations, only what you feel is right for you as an individual.
I fly, Im a 1600 hour pilot (not a lot of hours in 9 years) on the brink of first command. But its taken me 9 years to get here since obtaining my CPL/IR.
Like many before, many now and many after, being a pilot was all I wanted. Literally. I have not been lucky or as prudent enough as others to have been able to obtain another skill or have a previous career that I could potentially fall back on if this all failed me. To that I have to make my flying work. But i'm not bound by that. It will work because its what I wanted to do. It will work because its still what I want to do now.
Granted I have not been around the industry as long as some who have seen many changes. But when I qualified in 2005 it was a great time as a 'newby' to get into the industry. I landed my first job flying business jets 1 month before graduation from the flight school. I've flown business jets ever since.
I've never been part of an airline or airline setup and I would never criticise any aspect of it as I simply haven't done it. I can only offer you my experience.
I started flying business jets because that's what came calling first and I have just stuck with it ever since. Not because I had the luxury to choose between G/A or airlines.
The business jet world is as unstable as the Andreas Fault line (i'm not plugging the new movie). I have been a victim of its instability.I was out of flying for 2 years because of a company folding on the front of the economic downturn.
2 years. It was long, it was drawn, it was pretty much hell. A 700 hour pilot feeling like there was nothing to show for the efforts. But I still wanted to fly. Even after two years. I just never gave up. Ok circumstance was a lot different then, I didn't have a family of my own compared to now and perhaps if I found myself out of flying for a lengthy period again, I'm sure Id be in a different job to feed the family.
I liken my flying as a career to perhaps a lad who manged to fulfill his dream of become a footballer. Getting paid to do what you love. There is no difference. I don't want to upset anybody or belittle what has been said before, but id like to think we didn't sign up to lie on a beach for 4 days but that we signed up for the love of flying the aircraft. I mean we don't sign up for any other job for the amount of coffee breaks or smoking breaks we get.
By business jet standards what I fly may be seen as being small and almost a toy and to that the extra bits that come with the territory such as being on your hands and knees in uniform in +30 degrees cleaning the cabin before the next departure, or at times doing and filing your own flight plans (i guess 'muckin' in is a good term) may seem like 'scratch of the head' stuff. But again, I wouldn't change it. You see there's taking a look over the other side of the fence and wondering perhaps what airline flying would be like or even another operator in GA, but nothing compares to that 2 year lull I had. I'd take the cleaning of the cabin toilet and putting you're own oil in down route over that lull any day of the week.
As mentioned before I am now on the verge of my first command. I get to lie on the beach for a few days sometimes and I'm based in my home country where all my family are. Yep there's always that unsure-ness waiting around the corner but i know if you don't give up and find the angles things will always work if that's what you want.
If you've genuinely fallen out of love with something in life then for sure its time to move on...... and let me just state that in my opinion there's nothing that should come before your family or health, so yes there are times when decisions have to be made.
As a guy in his thirties who was 22 when he qualified and started flying jets, I look up to the older fellas. I take something from everyone who is older than me and been around the industry longer than me. I form an opinion on my own path based on segments from each person. There is never the ideal job in life and sometimes its the people you come across that make the job just as worth while. You all sound like good chaps who will do the right thing, but just know that there are people coming through the ranks now who would tear a limb off to be you or to be in your position. The same people that probably look up to you.
I hope it all works out whatever you decide.
Thanks in advance for reading.
I just thought Id add my input. My post isn't a direct reply to anybody but more so and hopefully a touch of inspiration.
Firstly in life id like to think there is no right or wrong when it comes to your personal situations, only what you feel is right for you as an individual.
I fly, Im a 1600 hour pilot (not a lot of hours in 9 years) on the brink of first command. But its taken me 9 years to get here since obtaining my CPL/IR.
Like many before, many now and many after, being a pilot was all I wanted. Literally. I have not been lucky or as prudent enough as others to have been able to obtain another skill or have a previous career that I could potentially fall back on if this all failed me. To that I have to make my flying work. But i'm not bound by that. It will work because its what I wanted to do. It will work because its still what I want to do now.
Granted I have not been around the industry as long as some who have seen many changes. But when I qualified in 2005 it was a great time as a 'newby' to get into the industry. I landed my first job flying business jets 1 month before graduation from the flight school. I've flown business jets ever since.
I've never been part of an airline or airline setup and I would never criticise any aspect of it as I simply haven't done it. I can only offer you my experience.
I started flying business jets because that's what came calling first and I have just stuck with it ever since. Not because I had the luxury to choose between G/A or airlines.
The business jet world is as unstable as the Andreas Fault line (i'm not plugging the new movie). I have been a victim of its instability.I was out of flying for 2 years because of a company folding on the front of the economic downturn.
2 years. It was long, it was drawn, it was pretty much hell. A 700 hour pilot feeling like there was nothing to show for the efforts. But I still wanted to fly. Even after two years. I just never gave up. Ok circumstance was a lot different then, I didn't have a family of my own compared to now and perhaps if I found myself out of flying for a lengthy period again, I'm sure Id be in a different job to feed the family.
I liken my flying as a career to perhaps a lad who manged to fulfill his dream of become a footballer. Getting paid to do what you love. There is no difference. I don't want to upset anybody or belittle what has been said before, but id like to think we didn't sign up to lie on a beach for 4 days but that we signed up for the love of flying the aircraft. I mean we don't sign up for any other job for the amount of coffee breaks or smoking breaks we get.
By business jet standards what I fly may be seen as being small and almost a toy and to that the extra bits that come with the territory such as being on your hands and knees in uniform in +30 degrees cleaning the cabin before the next departure, or at times doing and filing your own flight plans (i guess 'muckin' in is a good term) may seem like 'scratch of the head' stuff. But again, I wouldn't change it. You see there's taking a look over the other side of the fence and wondering perhaps what airline flying would be like or even another operator in GA, but nothing compares to that 2 year lull I had. I'd take the cleaning of the cabin toilet and putting you're own oil in down route over that lull any day of the week.
As mentioned before I am now on the verge of my first command. I get to lie on the beach for a few days sometimes and I'm based in my home country where all my family are. Yep there's always that unsure-ness waiting around the corner but i know if you don't give up and find the angles things will always work if that's what you want.
If you've genuinely fallen out of love with something in life then for sure its time to move on...... and let me just state that in my opinion there's nothing that should come before your family or health, so yes there are times when decisions have to be made.
As a guy in his thirties who was 22 when he qualified and started flying jets, I look up to the older fellas. I take something from everyone who is older than me and been around the industry longer than me. I form an opinion on my own path based on segments from each person. There is never the ideal job in life and sometimes its the people you come across that make the job just as worth while. You all sound like good chaps who will do the right thing, but just know that there are people coming through the ranks now who would tear a limb off to be you or to be in your position. The same people that probably look up to you.
I hope it all works out whatever you decide.
Thanks in advance for reading.
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The glamour!
I have been doing this for nearly 40 years and it is really quite simple.
It is all about glamour!
All this BS you read about..."I do it for the love of flying....."
Whether you love flying or loathe it, the motivation for being a "real live Airline pilot" was always about the glamour. I rode a fantastic career that was the last big surf wave from the 1970's through to today. The job of an airline pilot in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's held a certain mystique and cachet. It was a vocation that automatically garnered respect, a sense of adventure, travel to exotic locations, good remuneration at the top tiers, and a transformation from being the skinny kid in the Charles Atlas adverts to somebody that even old Charley himself would look up to with admiration and envy.
From an aspirational standpoint, it was the job that ex-military pilots sought to pad out and feather their post service years. Let the good times roll! Even though (even in those days) it was often routine and ordinary, that was never the public perception. Never the perception your neighbours had, and remained one of the dream jobs of every schoolboy (times have changed!)
The last decade of the Twentieth century and certainly the first two decades of this one brought with it a number of sea changes. Firstly the mystique was stripped away. The Royal family made this mistake when some of the younger members decide to become more accessible to the people. Once the mystique was gone, everybody then wondered why they were holding these people in such awe. In our case we did it to ourselves. As we proudly showed anyone with even a passing interest just how we could fly a 150 ton jet with only our little finger, those same people did begin to wonder just how difficult this really was, and why we were being paid so much to do it.
The Nineties brought an accelerating growth in travel for the masses. Peoples Express, Laker, and others, cemented the perception in the public psyche that this was simply an aerial bus service. Turn up with £99 or $199 and the world was your oyster as long as you didn't plan on eating oysters as part of the service provided. Then as the new millennium drew close, so came the concept of the "lo-Co's." In the USA and Europe the concept of short haul travel for the price of a pair of Levi's. Ambitious "Shock-Jock" and media savvy CEO's who had no problem using TV reality shows to promote a business idea that had an eager and hungry ready market. The "I only fly British Airways" brigade, could assuage any potential embarrassment at dinner parties by openly bragging of their trophy achievement of flying to Rome for only £19.95. Coupled with the huge market of those who couldn't care less as long as the price was right, and the writing was on the wall in letters Twelve feet high! If glamour was firmly out of fashion for the customer, it wouldn't be long before it wasn't going to be in evidence on the other side of the flight deck door.
It all started innocently enough. A new "low cost" (whatever that really meant) Irish airline offering jobs on a small fleet of old 737's and BAC 111's. Earn a hundred grand and sleep in your own bed every night said the ad's. What wasn't there to like for those made redundant from the collapse of Dan-Air, Air Europe, Laker, et al? Send fifty quid to have your CV read was maybe a little tacky, but we could live with it. Then came the "shock" pronouncements from the new generation of celebrity CEO's. Outrageous (often purely entertainment) press conferences where, planes would fly with one pilot or no toilets, or standing room only, but underlying it would be the suggestion that it was to champion the consumers insatiable demand for ever cheaper flights.
The infomercial/reality TV programmes became long running (and very popular) soap operas that stripped away the last vestiges of mystique, respect, kudos, and glamour that had ever been inherent in the job of the Airline pilot. Together with a world that now had a camera (phone) in every pocket, the job was stripped naked, and laid bare for everybody to see.
Then came the economic realities of the same period. CEO's became the new celebrity capitalists. The new mystique, kudos, respect and glamour, shifted firmly into the ostentatious displays of huge wealth that were often portrayed in the media. The rewards and glamour were concentrated in the pockets of those that controlled the businesses.
Despite these realities, there was still a solid belief in the minds of many would be pilots, that it was all temporary and would go away eventually. We would turn the clock back to the Sixties and the perceived glamour of the job would return. Our neighbours would envy us and the public would respect our every utterance. It was delusional. The world had changed for ever. It would and will continue to change, but that particular genie is never again going to return to the bottle!
As with any boom, it all got somehow easier, and there was a massive rush to become a part of something that was simply becoming extinct. As the licensing requirements all appeared to get easier and easier, so thousands and thousands of new hopefuls flocked to the temple. For most it proved a bitter disappointment. For the successful minority, the new realities often failed to mesh with the perceived expectations. For those further up the beach, it took longer for the tide to reach them, but reach them it did!
The idea of regulation is nonsense. That idea died in the Nineties! The public (and the politicians elected by them,) have absolutely no appetite for anything seen as restrictive and anti-competitive. The job has changed, and in many respects it has changed forever. The glamour is just too embarrassing for most to admit, but it is and always was the primary driver for this job. It is what made it every schoolboys dream.
I will always consider myself supremely lucky to have had the chance to ride that wave. Now the wave has broken on the shore and the sea is very calm (and not particularly warm or blue!) Oh well!
It is all about glamour!
All this BS you read about..."I do it for the love of flying....."
Whether you love flying or loathe it, the motivation for being a "real live Airline pilot" was always about the glamour. I rode a fantastic career that was the last big surf wave from the 1970's through to today. The job of an airline pilot in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's held a certain mystique and cachet. It was a vocation that automatically garnered respect, a sense of adventure, travel to exotic locations, good remuneration at the top tiers, and a transformation from being the skinny kid in the Charles Atlas adverts to somebody that even old Charley himself would look up to with admiration and envy.
From an aspirational standpoint, it was the job that ex-military pilots sought to pad out and feather their post service years. Let the good times roll! Even though (even in those days) it was often routine and ordinary, that was never the public perception. Never the perception your neighbours had, and remained one of the dream jobs of every schoolboy (times have changed!)
The last decade of the Twentieth century and certainly the first two decades of this one brought with it a number of sea changes. Firstly the mystique was stripped away. The Royal family made this mistake when some of the younger members decide to become more accessible to the people. Once the mystique was gone, everybody then wondered why they were holding these people in such awe. In our case we did it to ourselves. As we proudly showed anyone with even a passing interest just how we could fly a 150 ton jet with only our little finger, those same people did begin to wonder just how difficult this really was, and why we were being paid so much to do it.
The Nineties brought an accelerating growth in travel for the masses. Peoples Express, Laker, and others, cemented the perception in the public psyche that this was simply an aerial bus service. Turn up with £99 or $199 and the world was your oyster as long as you didn't plan on eating oysters as part of the service provided. Then as the new millennium drew close, so came the concept of the "lo-Co's." In the USA and Europe the concept of short haul travel for the price of a pair of Levi's. Ambitious "Shock-Jock" and media savvy CEO's who had no problem using TV reality shows to promote a business idea that had an eager and hungry ready market. The "I only fly British Airways" brigade, could assuage any potential embarrassment at dinner parties by openly bragging of their trophy achievement of flying to Rome for only £19.95. Coupled with the huge market of those who couldn't care less as long as the price was right, and the writing was on the wall in letters Twelve feet high! If glamour was firmly out of fashion for the customer, it wouldn't be long before it wasn't going to be in evidence on the other side of the flight deck door.
It all started innocently enough. A new "low cost" (whatever that really meant) Irish airline offering jobs on a small fleet of old 737's and BAC 111's. Earn a hundred grand and sleep in your own bed every night said the ad's. What wasn't there to like for those made redundant from the collapse of Dan-Air, Air Europe, Laker, et al? Send fifty quid to have your CV read was maybe a little tacky, but we could live with it. Then came the "shock" pronouncements from the new generation of celebrity CEO's. Outrageous (often purely entertainment) press conferences where, planes would fly with one pilot or no toilets, or standing room only, but underlying it would be the suggestion that it was to champion the consumers insatiable demand for ever cheaper flights.
The infomercial/reality TV programmes became long running (and very popular) soap operas that stripped away the last vestiges of mystique, respect, kudos, and glamour that had ever been inherent in the job of the Airline pilot. Together with a world that now had a camera (phone) in every pocket, the job was stripped naked, and laid bare for everybody to see.
Then came the economic realities of the same period. CEO's became the new celebrity capitalists. The new mystique, kudos, respect and glamour, shifted firmly into the ostentatious displays of huge wealth that were often portrayed in the media. The rewards and glamour were concentrated in the pockets of those that controlled the businesses.
Despite these realities, there was still a solid belief in the minds of many would be pilots, that it was all temporary and would go away eventually. We would turn the clock back to the Sixties and the perceived glamour of the job would return. Our neighbours would envy us and the public would respect our every utterance. It was delusional. The world had changed for ever. It would and will continue to change, but that particular genie is never again going to return to the bottle!
As with any boom, it all got somehow easier, and there was a massive rush to become a part of something that was simply becoming extinct. As the licensing requirements all appeared to get easier and easier, so thousands and thousands of new hopefuls flocked to the temple. For most it proved a bitter disappointment. For the successful minority, the new realities often failed to mesh with the perceived expectations. For those further up the beach, it took longer for the tide to reach them, but reach them it did!
The idea of regulation is nonsense. That idea died in the Nineties! The public (and the politicians elected by them,) have absolutely no appetite for anything seen as restrictive and anti-competitive. The job has changed, and in many respects it has changed forever. The glamour is just too embarrassing for most to admit, but it is and always was the primary driver for this job. It is what made it every schoolboys dream.
I will always consider myself supremely lucky to have had the chance to ride that wave. Now the wave has broken on the shore and the sea is very calm (and not particularly warm or blue!) Oh well!
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The obivous. There's no right or wrong. It's purely individual and relates to the circumstances and the proirities that each of us have. To add to your decission making there is a question that I think you should ask yourself. Can you imagine how life would be working in something that you don't like? Do you know the feeling after a day at work when you arrive at home and feel that you have spent your day doing something meaningless to you? Do you know the feeling after some time of working just for money and "comfort"? How about the routine and being all day in an office? Is that for you?
I agree. Life as an airline pilot is not easy. It is VERY demanding. Sometimes, when I am faigued, I myself even think of doing something else, but then I remember how life was for more than fifteen years while working at something I did not like. And I conlude that without a doubt I'd rather get back home feeling tired but happy after doing something I like and that is meaningfull to me than getting back feeling bored and empty after a day at work that serves only for "comfort". That boring comfort was unbearable. That has been my personal experience, anyhow. As most of us here I have loved aviation since I was a kid. It took a lot of effort to make that dream come true and not many people have the privilege of being able to say "I did it".
I agree. Life as an airline pilot is not easy. It is VERY demanding. Sometimes, when I am faigued, I myself even think of doing something else, but then I remember how life was for more than fifteen years while working at something I did not like. And I conlude that without a doubt I'd rather get back home feeling tired but happy after doing something I like and that is meaningfull to me than getting back feeling bored and empty after a day at work that serves only for "comfort". That boring comfort was unbearable. That has been my personal experience, anyhow. As most of us here I have loved aviation since I was a kid. It took a lot of effort to make that dream come true and not many people have the privilege of being able to say "I did it".
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REX
Likewise the lorry driver is unable to rely on automatics, ATC, complex aircraft automatics, 2 crew when it all goes wrong. There is an average of 8 people killed daily in road traffic accidents, 4 where sleepiness was a factor.
Where is more risk?
XOLLOB
Go there if you want but was there a suggestion that the crewmembers contributed, the C Word (commuting) caused the sleepiness, financial pressure (if they got off at base it was there cost to provide the room, whereas in Buffalo there was a paid room waiting for them)
To compare it to driving an HGV is displaying stunning ignorance of the highest degree. In really weather in a lorry you can step on the brake and pull over. In an aircraft you are committed to seeing it through to the bitter end (in an environment that is far more complex and changeable than the M4) at the same time as ensuring the safety of hundreds of souls on board with extremely litigious families. Burning human flesh leaves a slightly larger imprint on the mind and the conscience than a supply of IKEA furniture.
Where is more risk?
XOLLOB
Sounds extreme, but unfortunately I think it won't be long before a UK hull loss occurs, like colgan, only then will things maybe change.
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What a load of cobblers.
An HGV driver is a fine profession but nobody would seriously put their skills and responsibilities on par with an airline pilot. I assume, to give you credit, that you're playing devils advocate for the sake of argument and you don't seriously hold that ridiculous position.
An HGV driver is a fine profession but nobody would seriously put their skills and responsibilities on par with an airline pilot. I assume, to give you credit, that you're playing devils advocate for the sake of argument and you don't seriously hold that ridiculous position.
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What a crazy angle. A bloke paid to hump bricks up onto a roof may not just rack off Ikea if he drops his hod of bricks onto the deck. It maybe a freak accident that wipes out 4 people below, maybe more than a truck crashing. Yet this guy as a labourer is paid X. The guy who sells hamburgers at a fair could be under cooking the things and yet give food poising to tens of people who ate them, possibly death (it's happened!).
You don't just justify wages on what destruction you could cause. On your basis, loadmasters should be on the same as pilots given the destruction they could cause through a mistake, but they aren't. And a lot have flown/are flying around having been up 2 damn days on the trot, being paid on peanuts.
You don't just justify wages on what destruction you could cause. On your basis, loadmasters should be on the same as pilots given the destruction they could cause through a mistake, but they aren't. And a lot have flown/are flying around having been up 2 damn days on the trot, being paid on peanuts.
You don't just justify wages on what destruction you could cause.
This thread has really drifted away from the OP, which was about whether or not to leave the industry.
But seeing as we are on to what we should be paid, it's simple enough.
The laws of supply and demand dictate all. In determining 'supply' it is a given that the more difficult a job, or the less pleasant a job, the fewer people can or will do it.
We can carry on all we like about how 'hard' it is to become a pilot, or how 'responsible' a job it is. But the truth is it only takes average intelligence to learn to fly a modern jet, and the work itself may be tedious or tiring to some, but is not particularly onerous. Being a plumber would be a whole lot worse. The pay-to-fly brigade have that much worked out. To them it beats the hell out of working for a living.
As for being responsible, I never worried too much about the people down the back. My sense of self preservation automatically took care of their safety, and I suspect that most pilots think much the same, if only they would admit it.
The best example I can think of to prove the supply and demand case is when one has a toothache.
Ever tried to get a discount from a dentist?
But seeing as we are on to what we should be paid, it's simple enough.
The laws of supply and demand dictate all. In determining 'supply' it is a given that the more difficult a job, or the less pleasant a job, the fewer people can or will do it.
We can carry on all we like about how 'hard' it is to become a pilot, or how 'responsible' a job it is. But the truth is it only takes average intelligence to learn to fly a modern jet, and the work itself may be tedious or tiring to some, but is not particularly onerous. Being a plumber would be a whole lot worse. The pay-to-fly brigade have that much worked out. To them it beats the hell out of working for a living.
As for being responsible, I never worried too much about the people down the back. My sense of self preservation automatically took care of their safety, and I suspect that most pilots think much the same, if only they would admit it.
The best example I can think of to prove the supply and demand case is when one has a toothache.
Ever tried to get a discount from a dentist?
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The Prime Minister gets less pay than many headmasters despite the fact he can wipe out millions with the push of a button......
Train drivers carry many more passengers than plane drivers.
What an extraordinarily asinine way to try to judge worth.
Supply vs demand is the only metric worth looking at
Train drivers carry many more passengers than plane drivers.
What an extraordinarily asinine way to try to judge worth.
Supply vs demand is the only metric worth looking at
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I know there's no shortage of haters eager to denigrate our profession but I can't believe this idiotic debate is happening on a terms and conditions forum for professional pilots
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Maths
I have no dog in this fight and I am not a pilot but I have done some simple maths, based on an average job in the South East of England with a one hour commute to work each way.
hours worked
52 weeks X 40 hours is 2080 hours
5 weeks leave a year is 200 hours
7 bank holidays is 56 hours
total hours working in the year 1824 hours (assuming no O/T)
the commute to/from work adds 2 Hrs. per day for 228 days totalling 456 hours
total time away from home 2280 hours per year.
number of days worked
52 weeks at 5 days 260 days
5 weeks leave 25 days
less seven public holidays 7 days
total days worked 228 days per year.
most people earn less than £40K per year and have to pay full PAYE and NI contributions deducted at source. On the positives you do get weekends off, you do get to go to work at normal times (with the rest of humanity).
the grass always appears greener and for some people it sometimes is.
hours worked
52 weeks X 40 hours is 2080 hours
5 weeks leave a year is 200 hours
7 bank holidays is 56 hours
total hours working in the year 1824 hours (assuming no O/T)
the commute to/from work adds 2 Hrs. per day for 228 days totalling 456 hours
total time away from home 2280 hours per year.
number of days worked
52 weeks at 5 days 260 days
5 weeks leave 25 days
less seven public holidays 7 days
total days worked 228 days per year.
most people earn less than £40K per year and have to pay full PAYE and NI contributions deducted at source. On the positives you do get weekends off, you do get to go to work at normal times (with the rest of humanity).
the grass always appears greener and for some people it sometimes is.
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AVERAGE income in the UK is £26500 and that includes the SUPER Rich
MEDIAN income is £ 21000
Mach E Avelli has it in one - it's supply and demand that sets pay these days
Quite a lot of people have a romantic view of being a pilot and TBH it isn't that bad - reasonably pleasant working environment, no manual labour, working in small groups, no managment sitting in the corner watching you 24/7
Job security has gone for a Burton but then it has for most of everyone else in the UK, the hours are pretty anti-social but you get decent amounts of timeoff (admittedly on a strange pattern cp every other job)
The main driver for going or staying has to be job satisfaction - if you like the work stay, if you don't or you fancy something different go - but don't sit around moaning about it either way
MEDIAN income is £ 21000
Mach E Avelli has it in one - it's supply and demand that sets pay these days
Quite a lot of people have a romantic view of being a pilot and TBH it isn't that bad - reasonably pleasant working environment, no manual labour, working in small groups, no managment sitting in the corner watching you 24/7
Job security has gone for a Burton but then it has for most of everyone else in the UK, the hours are pretty anti-social but you get decent amounts of timeoff (admittedly on a strange pattern cp every other job)
The main driver for going or staying has to be job satisfaction - if you like the work stay, if you don't or you fancy something different go - but don't sit around moaning about it either way
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no managment sitting in the corner watching you 24/7
Be very careful with such an opinion. It is far worse than you can imagine.
Be very careful with such an opinion. It is far worse than you can imagine.
Last edited by RAT 5; 16th Mar 2015 at 08:54.
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
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An aspect I think is important is that if you're a passenger, you don't want a minimum wage pilot up front. You want a pro.
And if the pilots, especially in the right seat, are struggling and maybe even starving as they pay the dues of building log book and command time, and may be questioning whether its worth it, they may also be questioning the expenditure of time and conscientiousness that it takes to be competent. That's a danger.
Although I'm not at the very top of the heap, flying a domestic narrow body for a US major, I consider my job to be a plum worth protecting, and my compensation is fair for what I do. I protect that job by being as professional and astute as I can be every time I sit in the cockpit. Passengers may or may not perceive the reward of flying on an airplane with a crew that worked and sacrificed to get where they are, or be willing to pay a little extra for it, but I do, and am.
And if the pilots, especially in the right seat, are struggling and maybe even starving as they pay the dues of building log book and command time, and may be questioning whether its worth it, they may also be questioning the expenditure of time and conscientiousness that it takes to be competent. That's a danger.
Although I'm not at the very top of the heap, flying a domestic narrow body for a US major, I consider my job to be a plum worth protecting, and my compensation is fair for what I do. I protect that job by being as professional and astute as I can be every time I sit in the cockpit. Passengers may or may not perceive the reward of flying on an airplane with a crew that worked and sacrificed to get where they are, or be willing to pay a little extra for it, but I do, and am.