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Old 9th Nov 2012, 20:51   #61 (permalink)
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@ gcal and Wirbelsturm

My comment was directed towards testpanel, hence the reason that I quoted him. Whilst I have no truck with the conspiracy theorists posting on this thread neither do I approve of xenophobic or prejudiced comments, regardless of which side they are coming from.

I certainly do not include yourselves in that group.
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Old 9th Nov 2012, 22:54   #62 (permalink)
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Iberia a hindrance on BA?

With BA making a profit and gaining aircraft could it be right to say that Iberia are 'holding' BA back? BA have already had some of their 787 deliveries pushed back. It cannot be good for BA and IAG to have Iberia making such a loss. Originally wasn't the merger to help BA in South America but now do BA get back less than its worth?
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Old 9th Nov 2012, 22:56   #63 (permalink)
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"a good long haul product?

SLF3 Quote:-"Iberia have a good long haul product (better seats than TAM, everything else equal) and operate out of a first class hub airport. Their niche (South America) is booming. They should make money."

Either you don't get out much or you and I went on different Iberias.
I have travelled with Iberia to S. America several times. Their food is decidedly average and the IFE (A340-600) was pathetic, even in Business class. LAN beats them in every way. Given the choice I would opt for LAN every time - I've never tried TAM, I don't buy the tickets.

As for a first class hub, Madrid is a pain in the a..e through which to transit. Heathrow is probably worse but Madrid, although a nice airport, is far from a first class hub, as far as transitting is concerned. Sadly it seems that the only direct flights to S.America from U.K. are to Buenos Aires, Sao Paulo and Rio so a transit through MAD, AMS, CDG, FRA or MUC is necessary. BA and Iberia being owned by IAG does not make a lot of difference to passenger convenience, despite the hype.

However, you are correct, Iberia should be making loads of money on the S.America routes. The flights are always full, but I suspect that they are also the cheapest.
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Old 9th Nov 2012, 23:09   #64 (permalink)
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I recently flew Iberia/BA codeshare to Madris from T5. Having flown BA many, many times I was apalled by Iberia. They were by far not the cheapest and yet the service was poor and nowhere near the service of BA. I have been told that easyjet is better at a far cheaper cost. The Iberia 320 was dirty and the staff didn't seem to care, they just seemed to talk amongst themselves. Furthermore on BA at least for the extra cost you get food and drink included. I was surprised to find on Iberia that nothing is included.
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 00:19   #65 (permalink)
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@Jazz Hands, well said! I even heard a rumour that some airports were fully staffed but had no flights? And that some airports were staffed through the e.g winter when there were only summer flights. Also apparently there are a huge amount of 'major' airports in Spain all funded by the government (eu money) and under used. Not sure how true this is but either way it must have cost a fortune.
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 02:13   #66 (permalink)
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I am shocked and appalled. Surely this can't be so. Such wasteful practices could not possibly last forever, it would bleed a country dry in only a handful of years.
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 05:17   #67 (permalink)
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Shy talk

Please tell me, where are you from

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Old 10th Nov 2012, 07:18   #68 (permalink)
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Spain is paying the price for croneyism and corruption just like Greece but to a slightly lesser degree. During the days of free credit, boy did some of Spain's "well connected" do some great deals. Fortunately, some of them are now seeing prison cells whilst the remainder of taxpayers pay the price.

I lived here for a good few years now and I can tell you. Some of the old habits are still around!
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 07:31   #69 (permalink)
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@LGW Vulture

Unfortunately this is going off topic, however, related. I still live here in Spain, the same chronyism is still endemic. Whilst the majority of Spanirds are hard working, the elite, still are still freeloading. My wife would like to return to work, however, despite the crisis, she would be discriminated against left right and centre because jobs, unless it's a non Spanish company, go to family members first, then Spaniards. So much for equality in the European Union.

Last edited by Aksai Oiler; 10th Nov 2012 at 07:32.
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 08:10   #70 (permalink)
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I'Unfortunately this is going off topic, however, related. I still live here in Spain, the same chronyism is still endemic. Whilst the majority of Spanirds are hard working, the elite, still are still freeloading. My wife would like to return to work, however, despite the crisis, she would be discriminated against left right and centre because jobs, unless it's a non Spanish company, go to family members first, then Spaniards. So much for equality in the European Union'

It's not off topic because it emphasises the mindset that has allowed IB to wait this long before doing what it must.
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 08:31   #71 (permalink)
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I fly to Spanish destinations numerous times each month. Whilst I have no idea what is going on in the Boardroom of Iberia I see on a weekly basis examples of the Spanish malaise and "can't be bothered" attitude.

Whether, it is some of the shockingly unprofessional air traffic, lazy dispatchers or Air bridge operators who saunter up 10 minutes after the aircraft is ready to push having delayed 180 passengers. I have even had push back drivers leave their tug after push clearance because it's the end of their shift. Last weeks ground handling strikes in Madrid only put additional nails in the Spanish reputation.

What does all this have to do with Iberia? Well this attitude is endemic, and is almost a national character trait. There are of course hard working professionals but these are being over whelmed by the general malaise around them.

When I compare the major Spanish airports to other North European destinations which have far worse weather conditions they don't even come close. Instead of pointing the finger at BA they should be looking much closer to home.
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 08:35   #72 (permalink)
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Shy Talk
Last para particularly wasn't needed you tw*t ! (an "a" not "i")
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 09:10   #73 (permalink)
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spannish non jobs

I suspect that the non jobs in the spannish airports are as a result of management empire building rather than a lazy workforce.

At AGP if you taxi from some of the stands a follow me car turns up in front of the aircraft, leads the aircraft along 25 yards or so of average taxiway and then drives off ! The procedure it totaly useless and an example of spannish job creation. But who mandates this procedure ? I can't see it being an invention of the guy driving the follow me car ! So it has to be a member of the management team who is defending his position because his income is no doubt based on the number of people he manages.
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 09:44   #74 (permalink)
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I can see it from both sides:
The frustration of workers being battered and barged from all sides in the middle of a thumping recession.
Then again the reluctance to shift to more 'modern' (and questionably better) working practices.
On a bright note:
My frequent trips to BCN find the airbridge connected very quickly (why does it always seem to take so long at LGW/LHR - perhaps these 'modern' working practices) and the IB staff who handle the pax svc part of the work are efficient and professional, if somewhat steeped in their own companies procedures.
It's going to be a hard, long, and bumpy haul for Spain and I wish a people I have a great respect for all the best.
I also think some other countries have a somewhat ostrich with head in the sand attitude to their own problems.

Last edited by gcal; 10th Nov 2012 at 09:44.
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 09:56   #75 (permalink)
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I cant help but think that you BA boys and gals should be looking over your shoulder right now. Willy has a history of dividing and conquering, just look at the pilots he attempted to oust in Aer Lingus all those years ago. Fortunately we had a strong union and stood up to him.

For those of you unaware of his background then in a nutshell he was the most junior co-pilot on the seniority list at Aer Lingus. He got heavily into the union and became its president. He then jumped ship across to management and proceeded to turn on his colleagues - big style. From what I can gather he had few friends among the pilot ranks which is quite an achievement since we are generally a tight knit bunch given that there are only around 500 or so of us.I can honestly say I haven't ever heard anyone mention of meeting up with him for a drink and he is back and forth regularly and still keeps a house here in Dublin. The general impression was that Willy thought he was better than all of us and no doubt of you as well.

Now he has the BA pilots on various T&Cs, some with final salary pensions, others on contribution schemes and new entrants on a pay scale which many will never get to the top of unless ICAO have us all working into our geriatric years. Others were quite happy to serve tea in the cabin during the last industrial dispute.

I have no idea about the business model of Iberia but one thing is for certain. Once he has sorted out one side of the business he will be looking for more elsewhere. Whether its Vuelling or TAP or whoever, BA will eventually be in his sights.

Last edited by MCDU2; 10th Nov 2012 at 09:58.
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 10:45   #76 (permalink)
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Nowt new as we had a similar turncoat in BEA in the 70s - next to useless pilot in my opinion - and no friends except those in the Guild. Inventor of the silent cockpit. Fortunately Lord King came along otherwise BA would have gone down the pan.
Good luck to those in the industry - my last employer ceased - very good workforce but useless management.
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 10:48   #77 (permalink)
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hear, hear

I don't know why some brits have such opinions about Spain. Honestly! I am the number one criticizing Spain, but I have been in the UK and, man, the UK is not a model! I thought myself that it was. I went there and said "Ah, these british... They really know how to do things. Impressive people, these brits... So efficient, so disciplined...". Then after a few months I learnt that those are just myths. Nowhere near the british reality. I suppose you have an amazing good publicity, somehow. It really strikes me because I don't know what in your history makes you deserve such a good reputation. (Not that any country does...). The most striking of it all is that you, the brits yourselves, actually believe in that reputation. So IB staff are rude? And what are BA flight attendants and ground personnel??? They have barked me a few times, and I am a disciplined traveler, I swear. The rudest flight attendants I have endured have all been north european. Not that Iberia girls are as sweet as Qatar's...

As for the Iberia issue, I suppose that many in BA are relieved because thanks to the merger they have a bright future, now. The fact that the merger is sinking IB in the sh*t is just a coincidence, of course... It was inevitable after so many years of having profits, in spite of a couple of crisis, including 11S.

They didn't hire a pilot in 10 years. Did you guys know that? Ten years!! They have been trying hard to get rid of the pilot's T&Cs for longer than that. This is just the last or last but one act of a looooong story.

You know, guys, I don't give a sh*t about what you think about it. You are not going to have any influence in what is going to happen anyway, and I only wish BA pilots to have the same medicine one day.

As for your opinions about Spain... I am waiting for the mods to erase one or two posts here. Otherwise I will post. But please, folks, state where the hell you are from, so we can talk, ok?
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 11:16   #78 (permalink)
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and I only wish BA pilots to have the same medicine one day.

Perhaps you should have a look at the changes that BA pilots have accepted over the past decade and compare the relative wages paid to IB versus to hours flown.

BA pilots have had their medicine already thanks very much. Maybe you want to pepper your posts with truths and facts before waffling.

As to 'you'll be next', I personally have been hearing that for years. I've chatted with Willie Walsh on a number of occasions and he is a very clever man. Willie Walsh isn't a 'demon' as portrayed by the CC during their dispute, he is however a very astute businessman. He doesn't deal with anything on a personal level. The sooner some of the trolls on here understand that WW is responsible to the Board who are responsible to the shareholders then the basic business premises might be a little clearer.

The ones who put forward contingency planning and contentious change are the upper management of each individual member of the group. Willie Walsh risk analyses each and judges which would be too risky and which might be taken forward. He presents the various strategies to the Board who, with the input if the institutional investors and the majority shareholders, decide which would be worth pursuing. The implementation then goes back down the food chain.

Welcome to business.

Hence what is happening to Iberia is being driven by the Iberia management, not BA, nothing to do with BA and certainly nothing to do with those of us working the coal face at BA.

So get off your snide high horses and accept that this change was always going to come as the potential savings and investment opportunities into the future outweigh the costs involved in a minor industrial action spat.
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 11:48   #79 (permalink)
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I guess that would be the same Willie Walsh who has seen the share price smashed over the term of his tenure. Tying up with Iberia....smart businessman.......your having a laugh.

Wonder how long he would have lasted with Stelios as a serious shareholder.
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 13:47   #80 (permalink)
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I have lived in the Madrid area for the past three years. Firstly, I would like to extend my sympathies with those affected by the rationalisation. Nobody (with the possible exception of Microburst2002) likes to see fellow aviators put into a difficult position.

There is a general reluctance to accept the reality of the economic situation and this may be at the root of the problem. Yes, it is not nice to suddenly have to face the truth, but it is important to face reality. The reality is that Spain is deeply in recession and reform is long overdue. Iberia is not the only casualty, but it needs a life saving operation to be saved. Over the past few years Spanair, Air Madrid, Mint Airways, and Air Comet have all gone tits up. EasyJet are closing their Madrid base in a few weeks, Ryanair are cutting back their routes from Madrid, and Air Europa have retired their 767 fleet. And now Iberia are to lay off 4,500. This is the reality of recession. Another general strike will not change things, no more than taxiing around the airport at 5kts will. Efficient working practices can, in the long term, provide a stable platform for recovery.

Last edited by 10002level; 20th Nov 2012 at 08:35. Reason: incorrect
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