Ryanair hires FAA/ US B737 Captains via Brooksfield (merged)
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vfe, the guy has a view point which has some value in my opinion, although I don't agree with all he says.
Your last comment in your post doesn't sit right and does you no credit. Safe flying to everyone.
Your last comment in your post doesn't sit right and does you no credit. Safe flying to everyone.
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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LHC, you conveniently forgot to mention that the most profitable airline in the USA actually happens to be very well unionised. In fact, your leader loves to compare Ryanair with Southwest. In fact he claims to have modelled it on them. I think that blows your theory that the reason all the other majors are in trouble right out of the water. Must be something other than unions. Couldn't possibly be due to bad management now, could it?
A happy workforce equals a productive one.
A happy workforce equals a productive one.
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Gentlemen gentlemen, take it easy on Leo Hairy Nuts. He is a well known pro FR man and will defend anything they do just because they do it. Pay no attention to him and he will just go away and play at being a pilot. Just don't fly with FR cause he is the kind of accident they have waiting to happen.
Be safe guys.
Yep: Southwest, the darling of the industry, has been heavily unionized for many years, and has the best-paid B-737 pilots in the nation, if not the world. Southwest's leadership was not in the business for a quick kill on stock prices.
Unions have not prevented Southwest from becoming very successful. This is no coincidence. Their history speaks volumes.
But Southwest has First Class Management, which seems to treat its staff (employees) as a bit more than liabilities on a financial sheet, in stark contrast to how most US airlines have historically operated. And they developed a route network which does not require passengers and crew to constantly shuffle through a terminal on every other leg.
Unions never created our wonderful hub-and-spoke networks.
The so-called "airline builder" in the 80s abused the very concept of Chapter 11 (bankruptcy) to void union contracts, even though Continental's unions were negotiating paycuts. After Lorenzo and his Superscabs were in place, Frank then bought other airlines. The skies looked golden: unions were gone. Continentals labor "force"consisted of Superscabs, union "crawl-backs" and desperate new-hires, plus those from Peoples' Express, New York Air who were stapled to the bottom of the seniority lists etc. The merger between Continental and Trans Texas before Lorenzo came onboard, and the greed which turned one pilot group against the other, made it much easier for Lorenzo. Nobody remembers (or knew about) the lessons from how Caesar gradually conquered Gaul (Aedui tribe already against Allobroges or Remi etc...'help us'...).
Therefore, why did this annointed-by-Wall Street non-union "Airline Builder" NOT build a successful airline? For any dufus
out there who still admires Lorenzo, well, he never planned to create a long-term airline success! He wanted to smash companies together so that he could create a big enough cash cow, milking their cash up into his holding company, Texas Air Corporation. Unions never hindered anything Lorenzo wanted to do with Continental-they were gone for many years. Therefore, where is the problem? I detect a lingering silence about this question. A few Department of Transportation Admin. judges under Reagan/Gerge Bush Sr. ruled in Lorenzo's favor immediately before they left to go work for his Texas Air Corp. Even this was in "Aviation Week & ST" and probably in the "Wall Street Journal". His actions even affected pension reform in the US Congress. Some people still admire the way he stomped on labor (they are not real people) and put seniority lists together with total disregard for experience. Read about how the FAA's Western Region was "allegedly" ordered by senior FAA bureaucrats to leave Continental and its flight operations and aircraft logbook "issues' alone. It would have embarassed the Reagan and Bush Sr. regimes. Who appoints the senior DOT and FAA bureaucrats?
Ignorance is no excuse for anyone who praises, even indirectly, such corporate cannibals as Lorenzo and Icahn. Now, let anyone who worships US airline managements explain how Southwest became so successful with the higher-paid 737 pilots in the US, maybe the world...with many long-term flight attendants whose personal stock is worth quite a large bundle...oh no, say a few geniuses on Pprune, that gleaming success is just a coincidence and anomaly....
Before the year 1999 or even 2000 (the watershed was 9/11), the most profitable US airlines were all heavily unionized. Two of the US major airlines with the more serious financial problems operate a higher percentage of regional jets than others
... are the (very high cost+ brand-new) regional jets not the 'golden calf' to worship? This has been the tranquilizing mantra chanted for years by many annointed airline mgmts! Who is still ignorant of the fact that one or two high-lea$e cost CRJs presumes to replace an older 737 or DC-9 which was paid for many years ago? How much more is the operating cost of a 44-seat than the same CRJ with 50 seats, just so mgmt can get round a scope agreement? Six less seats equals quite a percentage less revenue for similar operating costs. How does physically reducing revenue that much, on markets that have growth potential, indicate good marketing?
Unions have not prevented Southwest from becoming very successful. This is no coincidence. Their history speaks volumes.
But Southwest has First Class Management, which seems to treat its staff (employees) as a bit more than liabilities on a financial sheet, in stark contrast to how most US airlines have historically operated. And they developed a route network which does not require passengers and crew to constantly shuffle through a terminal on every other leg.
Unions never created our wonderful hub-and-spoke networks.
The so-called "airline builder" in the 80s abused the very concept of Chapter 11 (bankruptcy) to void union contracts, even though Continental's unions were negotiating paycuts. After Lorenzo and his Superscabs were in place, Frank then bought other airlines. The skies looked golden: unions were gone. Continentals labor "force"consisted of Superscabs, union "crawl-backs" and desperate new-hires, plus those from Peoples' Express, New York Air who were stapled to the bottom of the seniority lists etc. The merger between Continental and Trans Texas before Lorenzo came onboard, and the greed which turned one pilot group against the other, made it much easier for Lorenzo. Nobody remembers (or knew about) the lessons from how Caesar gradually conquered Gaul (Aedui tribe already against Allobroges or Remi etc...'help us'...).
Therefore, why did this annointed-by-Wall Street non-union "Airline Builder" NOT build a successful airline? For any dufus
out there who still admires Lorenzo, well, he never planned to create a long-term airline success! He wanted to smash companies together so that he could create a big enough cash cow, milking their cash up into his holding company, Texas Air Corporation. Unions never hindered anything Lorenzo wanted to do with Continental-they were gone for many years. Therefore, where is the problem? I detect a lingering silence about this question. A few Department of Transportation Admin. judges under Reagan/Gerge Bush Sr. ruled in Lorenzo's favor immediately before they left to go work for his Texas Air Corp. Even this was in "Aviation Week & ST" and probably in the "Wall Street Journal". His actions even affected pension reform in the US Congress. Some people still admire the way he stomped on labor (they are not real people) and put seniority lists together with total disregard for experience. Read about how the FAA's Western Region was "allegedly" ordered by senior FAA bureaucrats to leave Continental and its flight operations and aircraft logbook "issues' alone. It would have embarassed the Reagan and Bush Sr. regimes. Who appoints the senior DOT and FAA bureaucrats?Ignorance is no excuse for anyone who praises, even indirectly, such corporate cannibals as Lorenzo and Icahn. Now, let anyone who worships US airline managements explain how Southwest became so successful with the higher-paid 737 pilots in the US, maybe the world...with many long-term flight attendants whose personal stock is worth quite a large bundle...oh no, say a few geniuses on Pprune, that gleaming success is just a coincidence and anomaly....
Before the year 1999 or even 2000 (the watershed was 9/11), the most profitable US airlines were all heavily unionized. Two of the US major airlines with the more serious financial problems operate a higher percentage of regional jets than others
... are the (very high cost+ brand-new) regional jets not the 'golden calf' to worship? This has been the tranquilizing mantra chanted for years by many annointed airline mgmts! Who is still ignorant of the fact that one or two high-lea$e cost CRJs presumes to replace an older 737 or DC-9 which was paid for many years ago? How much more is the operating cost of a 44-seat than the same CRJ with 50 seats, just so mgmt can get round a scope agreement? Six less seats equals quite a percentage less revenue for similar operating costs. How does physically reducing revenue that much, on markets that have growth potential, indicate good marketing?
Last edited by Ignition Override; 18th Jul 2005 at 04:41.
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Your last comment in your post doesn't sit right and does you no credit. Safe flying to everyone.
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Making money or not has nothing to do with unions.
Ryanair is probably the ONLY airline in Europe with no Unions (YET..)
But Ryanair is far from being the only airline making money in Europe.
The fact Ryanair's management is having such a great time at the moment with contracts is widely due to the fact this country has benefited from Europe's aids and largesse in order to prop up the economy : more liberal, receiving more aid from Europe than anybody else.
Another reason for Ryanair's success is...public subsidies. Which is very amazing when you consider Ryanair promotes a more liberal way to work. Which means MOL and his sad colleagues do not apply what they preach for. Public subsidies from French regions for instance. Ryanair receives millions from France. No wonder Ryanair can offer such low prices. THerefore, nothing to call home about...
Now things are about to change with a major questionning of the Irish specificity within Europe and of aids which are not justified anymore.
Unions do exist within Europe but they will in the end. That's about as certain as day light will come tomorrow. Nobody believed in the soviet system's breakdown 20 years ago. Well, it did happen.
Ryanair is probably the ONLY airline in Europe with no Unions (YET..)
But Ryanair is far from being the only airline making money in Europe.
The fact Ryanair's management is having such a great time at the moment with contracts is widely due to the fact this country has benefited from Europe's aids and largesse in order to prop up the economy : more liberal, receiving more aid from Europe than anybody else.
Another reason for Ryanair's success is...public subsidies. Which is very amazing when you consider Ryanair promotes a more liberal way to work. Which means MOL and his sad colleagues do not apply what they preach for. Public subsidies from French regions for instance. Ryanair receives millions from France. No wonder Ryanair can offer such low prices. THerefore, nothing to call home about...
Now things are about to change with a major questionning of the Irish specificity within Europe and of aids which are not justified anymore.
Unions do exist within Europe but they will in the end. That's about as certain as day light will come tomorrow. Nobody believed in the soviet system's breakdown 20 years ago. Well, it did happen.
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some clarifications..
Could someone shed some light on the below for me pls?
Elifant: 'Hi all
Well, about upgradings within RYR.... For all those who are promissed a quick caommand process within RYR so to say within six month etc. Do not beleve it it just will not happen and basicly is just a trick to get experianced F/O. I know just one case of about 40 guys where this promise was kept!!!!! '
How true is this?
and...
The grin repa: 'pay for your medical,do medical on your day off,pay for your licence renewal,pay for all your meals,pay for your water,pay for your drinks,pay for your accomodation at all times pay for your transport,pay for your simulator sessions'
How much do you pay for your medical, licence renewal, and simulator sessions?
Thanks
AF404
Elifant: 'Hi all
Well, about upgradings within RYR.... For all those who are promissed a quick caommand process within RYR so to say within six month etc. Do not beleve it it just will not happen and basicly is just a trick to get experianced F/O. I know just one case of about 40 guys where this promise was kept!!!!! '
How true is this?
and...
The grin repa: 'pay for your medical,do medical on your day off,pay for your licence renewal,pay for all your meals,pay for your water,pay for your drinks,pay for your accomodation at all times pay for your transport,pay for your simulator sessions'
How much do you pay for your medical, licence renewal, and simulator sessions?
Thanks
AF404
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A medical costs about €200, an ATPL renewal about €350 and the sim, I don't know how much for Ryanair but Aer Lingus used to rent out their 737-200 sim for €300 per hour, so figure on substantially more than that for an NG sim (+ ryanairs cut), multiply by 8 for one 2 day session then by 2 for the cost per year. Then add the hotac, sustenance and flight costs.... So a substantial amount I would guess.
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Well....glad you guys finally got your very own "Franky baby" and any of you blokes who want to carp about Brits, Euro's, and the like not being able to fly in the USA...well.....you haven't been there...because I have, and thankfully there are many of them....maybe not as high profile, or sponsored in great numbers....but the opportunity exists...as it should...they are here.(USA).....is the Ryan Air agency thing a good deal.....not for you "locals" just like the AACS (scab) deal was for the Atlas pilots...and life goes on....dont whine about it...deal with it.
as always, excellent post IG ovveride...(You flew metro's?) but lets not leave out the part where ALPO (dog food) "forgave" the superscabs that "Franky baby" created...now they're not scabs...just members in good standing with...get this..."unfortunates of hire" we're all doomed.....
as always, excellent post IG ovveride...(You flew metro's?) but lets not leave out the part where ALPO (dog food) "forgave" the superscabs that "Franky baby" created...now they're not scabs...just members in good standing with...get this..."unfortunates of hire" we're all doomed.....
True Ironbutt: ALPA is far from perfect, whether as ALPA or ALPO. But when Valuejet was begun, their Captain (many had been Eastern Scabs) pay, with no benefits, was less than that of many delivery truck drivers-maybe less than that of some gravel dump truck/lorry drivers. I suspect that ALPA needs so much money in order to contribute to the Congressional PAC funds (just guessing here) in order to reduce airline obligations to pension funding and other very serious matters, that they would rather have dues money from any pilot-'former' (always) scabs or not. Most of my clarifications/responses on Pprune always take up too much space. I wish that they had not allowed Continental into the flock (that decision was probably a 'flock'-up), unless scabs were somehow excluded. Flew a short while in C-130, Bandits, Shorts and (still) years in larger tubofans with P&Ws 
.
Thanks for the compliment [whether in agreement or not, my comments are always sincere about our industry and our profession, both of which are suffering from the most serious attacks imaginable, partly OPEC..I guess that to offer to give the Israeli Air Force 50 free F-22s might not help ]. When an airline charges $200 US for a ticket and a FOURTH of this ticket price goes to taxes and govt/user fees, I wonder why OUR own US government is trying so hard to cripple its own airlines and staff/employees. No, our industry is not alone, but our representatives are aware of the exorbitant price of fuel and many might be aware of the taxes/fees.
.
.Thanks for the compliment [whether in agreement or not, my comments are always sincere about our industry and our profession, both of which are suffering from the most serious attacks imaginable, partly OPEC..I guess that to offer to give the Israeli Air Force 50 free F-22s might not help
]. When an airline charges $200 US for a ticket and a FOURTH of this ticket price goes to taxes and govt/user fees, I wonder why OUR own US government is trying so hard to cripple its own airlines and staff/employees. No, our industry is not alone, but our representatives are aware of the exorbitant price of fuel and many might be aware of the taxes/fees. .
Last edited by Ignition Override; 18th Jul 2005 at 07:21.
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A generally well written post, Ignition Override, however you left out a few rather important details about Continental/Lorenzo.
Continental, at the time of the untimely death of Robert Six, was absolutely the weakest of the US trunk carriers.
UAL was just waiting for a chance to clean their clock on routes to DEN and ORD...and they eventually did.
No Lorenzo, no Continental today...his deceptive practices or not.
They quite simply would have disappeared otherwise.
Now, the tables have turned, UAL struggles bravely on, while Continental has recalled all their guys...and is actually hiring a few more.
The last twenty years in the US airline industry has seen several other situations where companies have come...and gone, but Continental continues from strength to strength.
Oddly enough, as good 'ole Ironbutt57 has pointed out, all while ALPO invited the 'outs' back in, at Continental.
IMO, Lorenzo kept Continental alive for the short term, otherwise it would be dead as a doornail today.
Now, considering the FR issue, it is quite clear that MOL has yet to discover that you can attract more flies with honey, than you can with vinegar.
Will he ever learn?
Most likely not.
Continental, at the time of the untimely death of Robert Six, was absolutely the weakest of the US trunk carriers.
UAL was just waiting for a chance to clean their clock on routes to DEN and ORD...and they eventually did.
No Lorenzo, no Continental today...his deceptive practices or not.
They quite simply would have disappeared otherwise.
Now, the tables have turned, UAL struggles bravely on, while Continental has recalled all their guys...and is actually hiring a few more.
The last twenty years in the US airline industry has seen several other situations where companies have come...and gone, but Continental continues from strength to strength.
Oddly enough, as good 'ole Ironbutt57 has pointed out, all while ALPO invited the 'outs' back in, at Continental.
IMO, Lorenzo kept Continental alive for the short term, otherwise it would be dead as a doornail today.
Now, considering the FR issue, it is quite clear that MOL has yet to discover that you can attract more flies with honey, than you can with vinegar.
Will he ever learn?
Most likely not.
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The problem is, and always has been, within Europe, that to work in the UK, and aviation in general, you need English
For a Brit to work elsewhere, he/she needs the local language.
So.....................
Non-brit european needs to learn one language he/she was not taught from birth.
Brit.....................learn 24 more..
For a Brit to work elsewhere, he/she needs the local language.
So.....................
Non-brit european needs to learn one language he/she was not taught from birth.
Brit.....................learn 24 more..
From your assessment of the situation, I would say:
Brits need to learn F*** all as they allready know English
Europeans, need to learn at least one foreign language: English.
Maybe you Brits need also to learn Maths
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If MOL thinks he can ride roughshod over the immigration/work permot rules of France, Belgium Germany Italy and Spain he's got another think coming.
Using the spineless Irish Labout Ministry to get WPs wont work this time.
This is just the opportunity that all European unions have been waiting for. Right guys your serve!!
Using the spineless Irish Labout Ministry to get WPs wont work this time.
This is just the opportunity that all European unions have been waiting for. Right guys your serve!!
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Essex boy,
I object to calling the ham shanks sceptic tanks. You are a redneckophobic and should be exposed as such.
They will have no problem with the jar exams if we give them the answers.. To deny them the same conditions as the US would infringe their human rights.
I object to calling the ham shanks sceptic tanks. You are a redneckophobic and should be exposed as such.
They will have no problem with the jar exams if we give them the answers.
. To deny them the same conditions as the US would infringe their human rights.
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Yes, I'll admit we "ham shanks" are too stupid to pass the JAR exams.
I know I've been unable to come to grips with the section on "icing on wooden props" and I still cannot reassemble a carburetor blindfolded...
I appologize in advance for my buffoonery while flying in EU airspace.TC
I know I've been unable to come to grips with the section on "icing on wooden props" and I still cannot reassemble a carburetor blindfolded...
I appologize in advance for my buffoonery while flying in EU airspace.TC
Person Of Interest
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I havent read this whole thread, nor am I interested in getting involved in the politics of this arrangement being discussed...however, one post at the beginning of this thread indicated that Brookfield didnt pay their pilots anyway...I dont know about recently, but I have done 5 contracts for them from 1996-2002 and have always been paid on time in the currency of my choosing and to the bank I requested....
If I was seriously considering flying the 737 again (I am typed w/ -400 EFIS PIC experience) I personally wouldnt let the fact that Brookfield is brokering this deal turn me away...
If I was seriously considering flying the 737 again (I am typed w/ -400 EFIS PIC experience) I personally wouldnt let the fact that Brookfield is brokering this deal turn me away...
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Brookfield?
I've been reading this thread about Ryanair hiring U.S. pilots through a group called Brookfield, but I searched the web and couldn't find an aviation-company called Brookfield. Do they have a website?