Easy times.
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Easy times.
Electing to go VFR from an IFR arrival. hmmm?!
Scenario 1/. Its your base airfield, you know every blade of grass in the area. There is no traffic visually, there is not a cloud in the sky, the light is perfect, there is nothing on TCAS there is nothing on Radar - except you, you are visual with the airfield, the runway, the approach - the met conditions apart from the above are . . ideal. Its is better than CAVOK it is God`s own dream of clarity. Tempting to elect to go VFR and make a visual approach . . ?
Scenario 2/. Its all of the above but, as you are IFR, you stay IFR because that is your own personal policy - and hey . . .you get to see what it is like outside, when you cannot usually see out side, if you are PM at least.
What is my question or point?
Does anyone here fall into category number two? - apart from me that is?
Scenario 1/. Its your base airfield, you know every blade of grass in the area. There is no traffic visually, there is not a cloud in the sky, the light is perfect, there is nothing on TCAS there is nothing on Radar - except you, you are visual with the airfield, the runway, the approach - the met conditions apart from the above are . . ideal. Its is better than CAVOK it is God`s own dream of clarity. Tempting to elect to go VFR and make a visual approach . . ?
Scenario 2/. Its all of the above but, as you are IFR, you stay IFR because that is your own personal policy - and hey . . .you get to see what it is like outside, when you cannot usually see out side, if you are PM at least.
What is my question or point?
Does anyone here fall into category number two? - apart from me that is?
Last edited by Natstrackalpha; 29th Apr 2013 at 12:54.
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What exactly is your question? Are you scared of doing a
VA in case you screw it up?
If its a nice day and I'm visual I request visual approach.
If the bloke in the Tower says yes then I'll break off and
do one. If he says no then I don't.
VA in case you screw it up?
If its a nice day and I'm visual I request visual approach.
If the bloke in the Tower says yes then I'll break off and
do one. If he says no then I don't.
Is your question regarding a contact approach in case 2, presuming you are in visual at the VDP, or doing a visual when you are CAVOK? 
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What exactly is your question? Are you scared of doing a
VA in case you screw it up?
VA in case you screw it up?
SLASHER DUDE, I`VE SPENT 27 YEARS FLYING MANUAL VISUAL APPROACHES. NOW ITS THE A320 BABY. I WANT TO REALAX AND NOT WORK TOO HARD FOR A LIVING, TAKE IT EASY, MAKE IT AUTOMATIC, LET THE BEAUTIFUL MACHINE TRY TO PROVE TO ME THAT IT CAN, IN FACT, DO WHAT IT IS DESIGNED TO DO.
IN SHORT I `AINT SCARED OF JACK DIDDLY.
SAME WITH CARS, AH SAIYED, SAAIYM WITH CARRS, YOU GUYS HAVE HAD AUTOMATIC FOR AGES, NOW YOU WANT MANUAL FLOOR SHIFT.
WELL FINE, YOU TAKE THE FLOOR SHIFT AND I`LL TAKE THE GODAMN AUTOMATIC.
f----sake.
Last edited by Natstrackalpha; 1st May 2013 at 08:29.
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The question for me is relative.
Are you in a puddle jumper, or flying a few hundred fare paying passengers?
Are you trying to get on the ground quicker (remember, IFR traffic usually has priority over visual traffic at busy aerodromes)
Nothing wrong with shooting a visual, just get to a known point on the approach (Final approach fix for a 3 degree for example and drive it down). If you intend to roll out on finals at half a mile, dump the gear and the final flap and throw it on the ground, its probably not the best idea.
How long have you been working for? Visuals are fine for the first approach of the day, but can capacity sap somewhat if you are manually flying, which isnt a good idea on the 6th sector of a max duty day...
What does your operating manual SOP say?
Having flown over 500 visual arrivals into the 3rd or 4th busiest UK controlled airfield (Camp bastion), mostly at night, I can tell you that its just easier and quicker sometimes to take vectors to the ILS. unfortunately, that wasnt an option there from 2004 (dirt strip) till 2011 (ils fitted, hooray!).
Regards,
Vin.
Are you in a puddle jumper, or flying a few hundred fare paying passengers?
Are you trying to get on the ground quicker (remember, IFR traffic usually has priority over visual traffic at busy aerodromes)
Nothing wrong with shooting a visual, just get to a known point on the approach (Final approach fix for a 3 degree for example and drive it down). If you intend to roll out on finals at half a mile, dump the gear and the final flap and throw it on the ground, its probably not the best idea.
How long have you been working for? Visuals are fine for the first approach of the day, but can capacity sap somewhat if you are manually flying, which isnt a good idea on the 6th sector of a max duty day...
What does your operating manual SOP say?
Having flown over 500 visual arrivals into the 3rd or 4th busiest UK controlled airfield (Camp bastion), mostly at night, I can tell you that its just easier and quicker sometimes to take vectors to the ILS. unfortunately, that wasnt an option there from 2004 (dirt strip) till 2011 (ils fitted, hooray!).
Regards,
Vin.
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Are you in a puddle jumper, or flying a few hundred fare paying passengers?
Yes, this is exactly my point. Puddle jumping no worries in a spam can.
As you described (thank you) chucking it all down and swooping in from above is still no worries, especially, (don`t ask me why, am not a psychologist) if I can see am gonna make it, easily, and have practised it a million, ok, a thousand times either in reality or the sim. hell, I could breeze a heavy L1011 from base to finals, at the right speed and bring her in, from base to finals, no showboating, no risk pushing, no g, no energies making me go off onto a different direction other than that advertised, as I have done in the past.
Sadly, not (yet) had the honour of having the night sky lit up by those trying to make you into a roman candle.
What I was thinking was, as it (the IFR fltpln) is all tied up and packaged in the flight plan we have earlier pulled to pieces and briefed together it seems a shame just to fly in and waste it. Weird though it may sound, I DO feel safer going in on the IFR Flt Pln as planned, but would feel equally safe if the whole kit packed up and the conditions were marginal if not VFR, ways and means to get VMC and if in an obvious way physically possible and safe and do-able, then I would have no qualms about getting in nice safe and sound.
But, in day to day busy ops, full of pax, or at least, being larger and heavier than a puddle jumper at 60-74 T I would feel uneasy about leaving the game plan (as rehersed) and inventing a new way to land when both our brains are programmed for one of the IFR Approaches that are on the plane.
Its the flicking from one to another (IFR/VA) without imperative impetus, that makes me want to stick with the (IFR) game plan.
Stay safe
Last edited by Natstrackalpha; 29th Apr 2013 at 17:17.
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A few points:
1) You seem to be confusing going visual with going VFR. The former does not automatically mean the latter - visual approach is still a part of IFR flight
2) Re your comments sticking to the briefed/rehearsed plan - why not include a possibility of shooting a visual app in your approach briefing? If the weather looks right, I always try to brief beforehand if (and how) I intend to shoot a visual app - to avoid 'inventing a new way to land', as you put it
3) Echoing comments of other contributors, I think that visual approaches are a part of professional pilot's 'tool set' and are perfectly safe provided there are carried out correctly and in appropriate conditions - be it in a puddle jumper or an A380 - plus, they're more fun than chasing the needles (or worse, watching the autopilot do it)
1) You seem to be confusing going visual with going VFR. The former does not automatically mean the latter - visual approach is still a part of IFR flight
2) Re your comments sticking to the briefed/rehearsed plan - why not include a possibility of shooting a visual app in your approach briefing? If the weather looks right, I always try to brief beforehand if (and how) I intend to shoot a visual app - to avoid 'inventing a new way to land', as you put it
3) Echoing comments of other contributors, I think that visual approaches are a part of professional pilot's 'tool set' and are perfectly safe provided there are carried out correctly and in appropriate conditions - be it in a puddle jumper or an A380 - plus, they're more fun than chasing the needles (or worse, watching the autopilot do it)
Last edited by Stuck_in_an_ATR; 29th Apr 2013 at 17:47.
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Thanks everybody.
- that was funny!!! LOL
If you intend to roll out on finals at half a mile, dump the gear and the final flap and throw it on the ground, its probably not the best idea
Last edited by Natstrackalpha; 29th Apr 2013 at 18:27.
On typical summer afternoon, there's no other way to land at SPU except following visual circuit for 23, yet even occasional 330 make it without problems. Go figure.
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A visual approach is as much an IFR procedure as CATIIIB ILS. To fly a visual approach you do NOT need to cancel your IFR flightplan, iow you don't need to go VFR. Your ops manual will detail the minimum requirements for a visual approach like it will detail the minimum requirements for CATIIIB.
Weather being equal would you rather fly the briefed circling procedure with prescribed tracks at 700ft or a visual approach at 1500ft AGL?
A visual approach is the most basic simple thing, with the same goal of approaching the runway at 3 degrees descent angle. In the end every manual landing is done visually.
Sorry buddy but what you say doesn't make any sense! There is no black and white answer. Sometimes I might elect to shoot a visual, other times I might elect to ask for a CATIII approach and autoland in the weather you describe. Other times I might be forced to shoot a visual. I know I will be able to do it as I practice regularly, AT on and off.
Anyway having to go manual and possibly visual is an option on every approach, the aircraft system or ground systems might leave you with no other option even after having started the approach. So how can it be a change of plan? You should have already discussed it!
And lets face it a visual on the bus is as easy as piss with AT on.
Weather being equal would you rather fly the briefed circling procedure with prescribed tracks at 700ft or a visual approach at 1500ft AGL?
A visual approach is the most basic simple thing, with the same goal of approaching the runway at 3 degrees descent angle. In the end every manual landing is done visually.
Sorry buddy but what you say doesn't make any sense! There is no black and white answer. Sometimes I might elect to shoot a visual, other times I might elect to ask for a CATIII approach and autoland in the weather you describe. Other times I might be forced to shoot a visual. I know I will be able to do it as I practice regularly, AT on and off.
Anyway having to go manual and possibly visual is an option on every approach, the aircraft system or ground systems might leave you with no other option even after having started the approach. So how can it be a change of plan? You should have already discussed it!
And lets face it a visual on the bus is as easy as piss with AT on.
Last edited by 737Jock; 1st May 2013 at 11:30.
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Twenty year ago I had the distinct pleasure of a L-1011 jumpseat ride with a Middle Eastern airline, ex-military PF, approaching the home field on close downwind.
180° carrier approach, still in some bank over the fence, wings level about 5 sec. before we touched on the numbers. This guy obviously practiced this regularly, and it was sheer joy to see it executed.
180° carrier approach, still in some bank over the fence, wings level about 5 sec. before we touched on the numbers. This guy obviously practiced this regularly, and it was sheer joy to see it executed.
NOW ITS THE A320 BABY. I WANT TO REALAX AND NOT WORK TOO HARD FOR A LIVING, TAKE IT EASY, MAKE IT AUTOMATIC, LET THE BEAUTIFUL MACHINE TRY TO PROVE TO ME THAT IT CAN, IN FACT, DO WHAT IT IS DESIGNED TO DO.
Gimme one of those 4 on the floor cars anyday! 
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Any pilot that has a problem with a visual approach isn't really a pilot, he is a button pushing idiot. Sorry. That is a fact. Please don't let your SOP's make you a button pushing idiot no matter what airplane you fly. Even the one that flys itself.
