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Old 27th Jun 2013, 10:38   #41 (permalink)
 
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I think those who are already a pilot couldn't care less of those who wish to obtain their first break especially the first pilot job.

The misconception of p2f is to jump que and fly the big shiny jets is nonsense and that perception is very wrong.

Please show me any airline that accept CPL with 600 hours ( non citizen ) and get everything fully sponsored?

The real culprits are those pilots few years back who were given a free rating and subsequently ran away when they collect the hours causing us the future or rather current pilots to suffer.

I have send my cv to almost every airline and the minimum requirement is 500 hour on type and please tell me where can I collect those jet hours?
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Old 27th Jun 2013, 11:14   #42 (permalink)
 
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Why do you think all these airlines are asking for those 500 hours? even better Why the same airline that is asking for 500 hours doesn´t have a problem hiring you.... if you pay for it? think about.

The day no one support these p2f schemes some of those airlines will stop to ask for those 500 hours. Cause if they don´t, they won´t find enough pilots and the only place for their aircrafts will be the apron. Period.

Time, for the pilot community, to realize who has the real power to fix the rules.

Last edited by IXUXU; 27th Jun 2013 at 11:17.
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Old 27th Jun 2013, 11:21   #43 (permalink)
 
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Why does everyone miss the point.

The reason most airlines can ask for 500 hours right now is because there are bucket loads of rated guys with hours without jobs. When the economy finally picks up and hiring starts again these mins will change.

I dont think any of the US regionals require time on type nor do the Australian jet operators such as Jetstar and Virgin. The place where time on type is required is Europe and the Middle East. Why is that? Because there are so many spare pilots in Europe thats where they can set the bar. The ME airlines have always asked for jet time but not always on type. The US regionals pay so poorly that they have to pay for type training. The Australian airlines cant ask for time on type cause no one actually has any who isn't already working for an airline already.

Stop saying I cant get a job cause of the 500 hours on type rules. Go fly for someone who doesn't ask for 500 on type. Oh my god you may have to fly a SE piston. How will you live with the shame?

What all of you people need is patience. Something most p2f people have not a lot of.
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Old 27th Jun 2013, 11:24   #44 (permalink)
 
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Maximum support to the last two posts!
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Old 27th Jun 2013, 12:11   #45 (permalink)
 
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I hope I do not offend anyone and or the Mods of PPRuNe of my analogy. If so, please accept my humble apology.

Someone please enlighten me. Explain the different between "Pay to Fly" chap who goes through a shyster contracting agency versus a "John" looking for instant gratification, that needs to deal with a pimp.

Think about it...

The John is the chap who does not want to go through the romance thing, or just can't meet a nice lass... versus P2Fer who wants the right seat now without paying their dues.

Pimps are willing to take a "John's" money for services to be rendered... versus the shyster contracting agency is also willing to take money from the P2Fer so they can get into the right seat of a jet.

Hookers, recommended by pimps provide that special service of wonderment and awe... versus many a carrier in Indonesia, is also provide a service. But before the services are rendered, both the hooker, and airline get their money in advance. No refunds in either case.

OK now we go back to the pimp and shyster contracting organization. They get their cut too, a finder's fee lets say.

No back the "John" and the P2Fer. The "John" got his rocks off. Did not have to pitch or woo the lass. He got what he paid for... instant gratification. What's the "John" left with? an empty pocket and possibly a STD.

The P2F chap after putting 500 hours in the log book? You know the one who bypassed the system where major part of the assessment is "You got the money?" Well he is $50,000 lighter in the pocket along with the "Stigma" of being a P2Fer. That stigma will follow them for the rest of their careers. I can guaranty, Fly Dubai, Emirates, Jet Airways, Qatar, Etihad, to say the least. Will round file any applications that have the smell of P2F on them. Think long an hard boys and girls. That my future and current P2Fer, you can take that to the bank.

In a previous post Koji188 stated my bitterness towards P2F schemes as well as asked for alternatives to build up legitimate flight time.

Again, Koji188... you can take the path of reward such as instructing, night freight, missionary flying, taking a job at bottom feeder that does not require payment from the pilot as condition of employment. Again, there are the cade programs too. You need to show the carrier, before they are willing to invest a bankroll on you, that you are worthy of joining their carrier. Perhaps you like many P2Fer would rather take the route of instant gratification rather than rewarding route to the jet.
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Old 27th Jun 2013, 12:38   #46 (permalink)
 
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Ray Ban's Going For Cheap!

lingdee,

How can you say that we couldn't care less about your first pilot job?? We've been there, it's bloody tough!! We empathise with you.

What you need to realise is these jobs requiring 500 on type are not aimed at you. There is a massive surplus of current 737 and 320 drivers out of work for various reasons. That's who they're targeting, because they can, and why not?

What you guys need to be doing are looking for real first jobs. No airline is realistically going to take someone with no experience when there are so many people current on type out of work. These agencies are preying on your hopes and dreams. The reality is whether you've wanted to be a pilot all your life, or you're looking for a career change, or you wanted an excuse to buy Ray Ban's and tell everyone how fantastic you are, the road to the top is a long one. You must be prepared for this. In fact, had you been well informed you would have been prepared for this even before you started flying school.

Nothing in life comes easy, neither does this. You must realise you guys are the VAST minority on this issue. This is an arguement you cannot, nor ever will win. It's common sense people. Enjoy the ride and don't be in such a rush. If you're rushing because you're in it for the money, I'm afraid you're in the wrong job.
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Old 27th Jun 2013, 12:46   #47 (permalink)
 
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To the fresh CPL holders, if you ever get the chance, read the book by the title 'Fate is the hunter' by E. K. Gann. It changed my prespective on flying.

The goal is not the shiny jets, it's the journey that takes you there. Same with climbing Mt. Everest. You can jump from a plane on top of the summit (an accomplishment in itself) or you can climb up all the way. But when you get there, it's the journey you will look back at that will give you the satisfaction.

There's so many fantastic jobs in Indonesia/Asia that a fresh CPL holder can apply to. Personally, flying a PC-6 into some of those mountain strips for AMA would be an absolute thrill, something you will never find in the airlines. A friend of mine who's a 737 captain wants to quit his job and fly porters in Papua! Why, he's bored of the same old sh!t everyday.

Indonesia is desperate for instructors. So what if it's a SE? You will meet some fantastic pupils who will remain your friends for life.

Last edited by flyboy_nz; 27th Jun 2013 at 12:47.
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Old 27th Jun 2013, 14:14   #48 (permalink)
 
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Peeps,
Let me try to explain a few things very quickly.
1. The Pilot selection process for the US military (as if for most armed services in the world) is such that even before applicants start their flight training, they have gone through an aptitude of various tests. And once they commence with flight training they are held to VERY high standards and their progress is monitored VERY closely. And a LOT is expected of them. And the washout rate is high. Much different standards then for a person walking into a flight school who just starts taking flying lessons and gets his CPL
2. I am a Yank, but I am assuming the Lufthansa scheme you are talking about is similarly fashioned like that of military flight training. Lufti pays for the students training. The student undergoes a battery of different tests before he/she is accepted into the program, and once in the program their progress is monitored very closely.

Let me use an analogy to try to explain why P2F is wrong.

If you graduated with a degree in aeronautical engineering and Boeing offered you a job to work for them, would you take it? Absolutely you would.
Now imagine you graduated with a degree in aeronautical engineering and for you to get that job with Boeing you have to shell out $50,000 and they only guarantee employment for 6 - 12 months? Would you take it? I know what my answer would be. I am assuming yours would also be no.

So my question is why then would P2F be acceptable, while the above would be considered reprehensible of the employer?

Last edited by TheBigD; 27th Jun 2013 at 14:14.
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Old 27th Jun 2013, 17:00   #49 (permalink)
 
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Well , no one has really answered my question heh?

It's easy to say don't do p2f and go find a job that doesn't need to have 500 hour on type and bla bla bla.

Simple, show me one job for cpl and more importantly without paying a single cent here? And when I said that I have actually lost count on how many airlines around the globe i send my cv to.

p2f is not a way to jump the que and fly big shiny jets. Look at the case of tiger and jetstar,both big names in Australia and not only they want you to pay for your type rating but your whole flight training as well which can cost about 200k grand. And let's not forget that during this period you are not paid a single cent.

Even 5 star airline like qatar airways is asking cadets to pay.

It's for an airline to save cost and yet again, no one dare to comment on past sponsored pilots who got the free rating and ran away causing the airline to lose tons of money.

It has to be a win win for both side.

So conclusion is,talk is cheap, show me the job people, if as you said so long we tried and they are jobs for cpl, trust me, the p2f will die by itself.

But look at the current situation especially with 12000 jobless pilot in india and not even counting those from other countries and experience jobless pilots, even with money today you cant even join any p2f.
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Old 27th Jun 2013, 17:51   #50 (permalink)
 
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@ flyboy_nz take a bow sir, take a bow that was well said. agree with every word you said
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Old 27th Jun 2013, 23:04   #51 (permalink)
 
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Urgh... It's like talking to a brick wall.

Let's make this a little clearer. Cadetships are different as there is a screening process and they take the "best and brightest" (supposedly).

P2F there is no screening procesa except the amount of money you can provide. So any muppet can fly these things. I feel safer already.
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Old 27th Jun 2013, 23:19   #52 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Simple, show me one job for cpl and more importantly without paying a single cent here? And when I said that I have actually lost count on how many airlines around the globe i send my cv to.
Everest didn't go to New Zealand and offered Sir E. Hillary to climb her. Sir E. Hillary went to Nepal to climb her.

Quote:
Look at the case of tiger and jetstar,both big names in Australia and not only they want you to pay for your type rating but your whole flight training as well which can cost about 200k grand. And let's not forget that during this period you are not paid a single cent.
It's actually more like 120k and it received quite a bit of flak in the Australian aviation community. The reason the cost was so high was because of the flying school that was being used which charges almost $500/hr for a C-172.

Also, there are still direct entry FO positions in these airlines which don't require you to pay anything, but you need 500 multi command to apply.

Quote:
Even 5 star airline like qatar airways is asking cadets to pay
But the question is will you? Under what T&Cs? And no Qatar is not a 5-star airline. Might have bought a few awards for themselves just like they bought the world cup.

Quote:
It's for an airline to save cost and yet again, no one dare to comment on past sponsored pilots who got the free rating and ran away causing the airline to lose tons of money.
Some people have no sense of loyalty or integrity. It is unfortunate and this is what this generation has come to. It's all about taking it all and never giving anything back.

Quote:
So conclusion is,talk is cheap, show me the job people
Talk is cheap, that's why the job is already filled. Because the one who isn't on PPRuNe asking to be shown the job has already got it.

Quote:
But look at the current situation especially with 12000 jobless pilot in india and not even counting those from other countries and experience jobless pilots, even with money today you cant even join any p2f
India has got bigger problems that those 12000 unemployed people. There's about 1.2 million that would appreciative more to even see an aeroplane. And out of those 12000, only 120 would put their hand up to go to Africa to earn a living as a pilot. Out of which only 12 will go. Why? Because pay some more money and there's p2f available across the ditch. The big shiny jet syndrome is alive and well there.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 00:12   #53 (permalink)
 
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Where is my jet?

Three people sitting around my house last night. All got licences around mid to late 00's. 2004 to 2008.

None of us are flying jets yet. All of us got our first jobs as jump pilots. All of us have time on SE/MEP and single engine turbine and one has MET. We aren't complaining about not being in a jet but just enjoying the ride to get there.

All of us are now on the wrong side of 30. If your in a hurry to fly heavy metal, now isn't the time to be getting a CPL. It hasn't been for a while. If you have recently got a CPL and are crying about there being no jobs then you are equally stupid and ignorant at the same time. The industry has been like this for the last nearly 5 years. If you couldn't see this before you started then you must have been living life with your eyes and ears closed. Stop the endless "where are the jobs" crap and go and find one instead of moaning about it(there are still jobs around if you look really hard). Oh you cant because you have no initiative, drive or brains to do it yourself.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 13:29   #54 (permalink)
 
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@lingdee even without googling i can tell you, a place you can try its called susi air, they were hiring till 6th of this month, and sky aslong as you can get an Indonesian cpl. but hey its flying a caravan will you be able to handle not flying a big plane ??
you keep banging on about show me a commercial job for pilots without 500 hour or TR , why do you think its your god given right to jump onto the right seat of a jet ?
and about qatari i think flyboi_nz explained it well.
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 02:42   #55 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FactCheck_Indonesia View Post
Don't you dare judge me.
You will be judged by others whether you like it or not. When you apply for your next job, you will be judged by the DFO, chief pilot and the selection committee of that airline. That's life.

I had lunch with a friend of mine who is chief pilot of the A320 fleet of an airline in Asia. He tells me he receives hundreds of applications from all over the world ranging from those with 250 hours TT with an A320 rating but with zero hours on type, to those who have in advance of 5000 hours on type. I asked him which candidates he prefers to choose and his reply was simple. During his time, there was no P2F schemes at all. He worked his way from being a 200 hour fresh CPL 30 odd years ago, to flying scenic flights in single engine Cessnas, to flying multi-piston charter aircraft until he got his first break as an F/O in a regional airline after 2000 hours flying piston power aircraft. He said those who have done it this way have proven their dedication to the industry; they're the type of people who are in it for the right reasons and they will be the ones on top of his list.

He went on to to say, when you have a large pool of candidates to choose all with similar jet experience, what separates one candidate from the other, is the journey that they have taken to get to where they are now. It's not all about the hours.
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 04:38   #56 (permalink)
 
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s.monkey, you mention during his time , he said there were no p2f, obviously this chief pilot ( or maybe you are that chief pilot yourself ), started his career ages ago when there are not so many pilot and type rating are still being sponsored and there still are jobs available for cpl

My mates in lion got into korean and especially flyscoot and qatar on the B777 because they have the jet hours from lion air. So for qr, you guys accuse it of having loads of money to buy award, so in this case how about flyscoot , which you have to pay for the rating even you are experience. Isn't it own by a renowned airline such as Singapore airline and Singapore government?

As for you pilotchute, of cause you wont be getting a real airline job and continue being a jump pilot or whatever job you are doing now.Yes i got my cpl not long ago and yuu said that we were blind of not knowing the industry.

I think you are one who is not aware of the current pilot situation.there are only 2 sides of the coin. Either p2f or airline sponsor.

Unless you are local and the citizen of that country,you will continue to be a jump pilot or whatever jobs that you are flying now.

So you still expect things today like the old days?

1) Invited for an interview and with all fully paid , maybe should throw in a business class seat as well since you are an expat
2) expect to get the job for free with no regards of the feelings of the locals and think that you deserve the job ?
3) everyone who work and help you along the way to get the job should also work for free to help to secure a job since everyone owes you a living?
4) Once you have you hours and rating, you can just go and causing the airline to lose money

I am thinking of both ways and what if you are the airline yourself? If you are the management of flyscoot and qatar?
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 05:57   #57 (permalink)
 
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@lingdee i presume from your posts you are from India , here are three jobs for cpl holders
1. prime air ambulance
2. Maldivian air taxi
3. deccan aviation is accepting cv's.
Hope it helps
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 06:33   #58 (permalink)
 
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@smiling monkey

i am sorry but i dont agree with you. i came to indonesia through an agency in 2010 when there was no job around. and 3months back i got into a reputed airline in middle east. its because of the decision that i made back then that i am where i am right now.
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 12:38   #59 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lingdee View Post
s.monkey, you mention during his time , he said there were no p2f, obviously this chief pilot ( or maybe you are that chief pilot yourself ), started his career ages ago when there are not so many pilot and type rating are still being sponsored and there still are jobs available for cpl
lingdee, he started his aviation career in the early 1980's and believe me, it was just as competitive then to get your first job in aviation as it is now. It has never been easy and where we come from, it was unheard of then, that you walk in an airline fresh from flying school. You usually need around 1000 to 1500 hours before you can even be eligible to apply for an airline job, and this is still the case now for the major airlines. It has never been easy, and those who did complete their CPL/IR but weren't motivated enough to gain hours flying small piston engine aircraft in the outback doing charter or scenic flights or become flight instructors, fell away by the wayside and pursued other careers outside of flying. There was no such thing and P2F then. Infact, there was no P2F at all in Indonesia until around 2009/2010 when EagleJet came in to the picture and approached Lion Air with the offer. Other Indonesian airlines quickly followed suit with Sriwijaya jumping on board. Merpati only had a few P2F but the majority of foreigners who were recruited only paid for their license conversions but the type rating and line training was provided by the company free of charge. I believe there's only one group of P2Fs amongst the Citilink recruits with others having already an A320 TR with time on type before being recruited.


Quote:
My mates in lion got into korean and especially flyscoot and qatar on the B777 because they have the jet hours from lion air. So for qr, you guys accuse it of having loads of money to buy award, so in this case how about flyscoot , which you have to pay for the rating even you are experience. Isn't it own by a renowned airline such as Singapore airline and Singapore government?
So here you have the situation where your mate paid to fly to get jet experience, and once he had the experience, he then pays again to get another TR. Where do you think Scoot got that idea from? That just shows how the industry is heading thanks to the P2Fs. It never used to be that way. Indonesia only started having P2Fs after Lion made that huge order of 739s and that was only in the last 4 years or so.

Thank goodness the DGCA is putting a stop to this right now by bringing in the 250 hours on type rule. And with the two recent incidents which involved P2F pilots in the RHS of those accidents, it's very unlikely that the DGCA will do a back flip on this ruling.
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 12:44   #60 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflight View Post
i am sorry but i dont agree with you. i came to indonesia through an agency in 2010 when there was no job around. and 3months back i got into a reputed airline in middle east. its because of the decision that i made back then that i am where i am right now.
Hey, one post wonder, welcome to PPRuNe captain. What I mentioned are the sentiments of my chief pilot friend; whether you agree with it or not, is irrelevant.
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