CSA China Southern!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Gardening
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
4holer,
Thanks for the update. I can think of worse places though
Where was it 'before' if it has been moved? From what i understand, CSA dont have a 787 sim yet. Is that correct??
Thanks for the update. I can think of worse places though
Where was it 'before' if it has been moved? From what i understand, CSA dont have a 787 sim yet. Is that correct??
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I still have to do the CAAC sim ride, but if successful, I would not know what to pick.
I like the B787 because it has LHR as a potential base, which is more convenient than FRA or AMS on the B777, although destinations and routes can change anytime. However I think the B777 would have more ways out if I was forced to change gigs in the future.
Also, as it is my understanding that we will always operate as part of a heavy crew with 2 full crews, I would think the B777 would be more comfortable for the relief sectors with the bunk beds on top, rather than the B787 which would be on first / business class, am I right?
Also I like the B777 cargo network, something that does not exist on the B787.
Any thoughts on this from the applicant crowd at CSA?
I like the B787 because it has LHR as a potential base, which is more convenient than FRA or AMS on the B777, although destinations and routes can change anytime. However I think the B777 would have more ways out if I was forced to change gigs in the future.
Also, as it is my understanding that we will always operate as part of a heavy crew with 2 full crews, I would think the B777 would be more comfortable for the relief sectors with the bunk beds on top, rather than the B787 which would be on first / business class, am I right?
Also I like the B777 cargo network, something that does not exist on the B787.
Any thoughts on this from the applicant crowd at CSA?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: AUSTRALIA - CHINA STHN
Age: 59
Posts: 261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
777..
Get thru the sim first then worry about it ... 24% overall process pass rate makes it entirely academic till then... After that ... Go the 777 for career path in the future ... The 787 is likely to come off LHR once the Brits relax the visa system to that of EU ... They want a bite of the Chinese tourist ( 150k to UK per year due to hard to get visas ) versus 1.1 mill to EU !!!
With slot limits the only choice is a 777 or more 380s , with perhaps an interim return to the 330 ...
See EK uses Five 380 s daily to LHR I think due this??!
Wja
With slot limits the only choice is a 777 or more 380s , with perhaps an interim return to the 330 ...
See EK uses Five 380 s daily to LHR I think due this??!
Wja
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi woodja,
I don't only have to pass the CAAC sim check yet, but most importantly decide if I'll take the job or not.
I'm still very concerned with the job not really being for PIC, and along with the fact that we have to give a bank guarantee for the 2 year bond makes me believe sometimes that we (the NTR ones) will be stock on some sort of cruise relief positions where we won't be able to log any PIC time and then be upgraded after the 2 years.
I've been explained by my agency that we will always be part of a double crew on long haul flights, which is fine. I'm not familiar with how these flights are logged, but I think the senior Chinese Captain will probably always be operating and logging PIC, and we will only be doing relief and logging P2 time, or whatever they call it.
I agree with you on the B777 choice. But, like you said, a lot of things must happen until that choice comes along...
I don't only have to pass the CAAC sim check yet, but most importantly decide if I'll take the job or not.
I'm still very concerned with the job not really being for PIC, and along with the fact that we have to give a bank guarantee for the 2 year bond makes me believe sometimes that we (the NTR ones) will be stock on some sort of cruise relief positions where we won't be able to log any PIC time and then be upgraded after the 2 years.
I've been explained by my agency that we will always be part of a double crew on long haul flights, which is fine. I'm not familiar with how these flights are logged, but I think the senior Chinese Captain will probably always be operating and logging PIC, and we will only be doing relief and logging P2 time, or whatever they call it.
I agree with you on the B777 choice. But, like you said, a lot of things must happen until that choice comes along...
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: canada
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The logging of time as told to me by guys currently on the job out of australia is shared 50 50 with the P1 (national captain) and the P2 other captain.
It is not a cruise relief position.
Every Second leg you will do the takeoff and the landing.
How you log the time when your not doing the takeoff or landing is up to you.
Its a 4 year contract not a two year contract and the company has been very good at ensuring that they want us there. If your base changes equipment they have even said that they will retrain you.
Yes TIC (this is china) ive read tons Ive spoken directly to many and Im aware of all the risks.. But I do believe that CSA is investing alot of money on this and they have many guys to take internally for a simple cruise relief captaincy...
ie draw from their own narrow body Captains?
Ive yet to decide on the job as well but am trying as hard as possible to simply look at the facts and now allow fear mongering into the equation.
WJP
It is not a cruise relief position.
Every Second leg you will do the takeoff and the landing.
How you log the time when your not doing the takeoff or landing is up to you.
Its a 4 year contract not a two year contract and the company has been very good at ensuring that they want us there. If your base changes equipment they have even said that they will retrain you.
Yes TIC (this is china) ive read tons Ive spoken directly to many and Im aware of all the risks.. But I do believe that CSA is investing alot of money on this and they have many guys to take internally for a simple cruise relief captaincy...
ie draw from their own narrow body Captains?
Ive yet to decide on the job as well but am trying as hard as possible to simply look at the facts and now allow fear mongering into the equation.
WJP
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not thinking that the job will be purely as a cruise captain (which is normally done by an F/O anyway). But my concern is that if the Chinese Captain will always get designated as the PIC (and it appears that it will be so), we will not be able to log PIC even if acting as operating crew on every other leg, which I know we will be just to stay current anyway.
In short, I think you will make the captains salary as advertised, have four stripes in your uniform, be addressed as "Captain" by the company and takeoff and land from the left seat with an F/O on the right, but if you're never the PIC for the flight, I don't see how you can log PIC time even if seating at the controls.
I don't know the exact rules on this and I would love to know the facts, but it seems an obscure subject that no one likes to discuss clearly, not even CSA or the agencies.
But one thing is for sure, the fact that you will only operate as part of a heavy crew and never on a single leg with just an F/O, along with the required bank guarantee for 2 years, makes me think that you will only be designated PIC by the company on flights after 2 years have gone by.
And that, along with the western bases yet to be announced, scares me a little bit...
In short, I think you will make the captains salary as advertised, have four stripes in your uniform, be addressed as "Captain" by the company and takeoff and land from the left seat with an F/O on the right, but if you're never the PIC for the flight, I don't see how you can log PIC time even if seating at the controls.
I don't know the exact rules on this and I would love to know the facts, but it seems an obscure subject that no one likes to discuss clearly, not even CSA or the agencies.
But one thing is for sure, the fact that you will only operate as part of a heavy crew and never on a single leg with just an F/O, along with the required bank guarantee for 2 years, makes me think that you will only be designated PIC by the company on flights after 2 years have gone by.
And that, along with the western bases yet to be announced, scares me a little bit...
A quick read of the CAAC regs will show that anyone that sits in the left seat whether they are PIC, P2 or Cruise captain must be fully qualified as a capt and receive the same training. That will allow you to log PIC time. The only question is whether you can log PIC time when P2 and didn't command the aircraft for takeoff and landing. That is not addressed in the regs so ask the airline when you get there what their policy is.
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: on the road less travelled
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WJAPilot,
How does that differ from you? Aren't you at present a 737 driver? Just keeping it real!!
Your statement sounds very niave. This group (Chinese) will promise you anything to get you on contract. A little research online will provide plenty of evidence why the Chinese CANNOT be trusted. Be prepared for plenty of promises but none will be delivered. If they say they will retrain you to the equipment that changes at your base have them put that in your contract. Let us all know how that works out. I have experience in SE Asia (although not China) and have former colleagues at CSA and they have either quit or are regretting their decision. Beware.
But I do believe that CSA is investing alot of money on this and they have many guys to take internally for a simple cruise relief captaincy...
ie draw from their own narrow body Captains?
ie draw from their own narrow body Captains?
If your base changes equipment they have even said that they will retrain you.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: My Place
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HSA.
You could not be further from the truth. The foreign guys presently in CS do not have any regrets. Good money, easy flying and CS do a great job when it comes to roster requests. We all have 1-3 weeks off over Xmas. I don't know of many other outfits that accept the resultant roster inefficiencies to give that.
Many of us do occasionally fly single crew domestic. I believe everyone logs everything as P1 but we are all older fellla's and don't give a crap about logbook hours anymore. Yes, the Chinese guy is PIC on international flights. The reason being is that he is Chinese and so are the cabin crew allowing better comms. Simple as that!
Flights are usually split in half so you do the TKOF or the LDG. Flights over about 12hrs are split 3 ways.
As mentioned earlier, don't worry about the details until you get accepted. My understanding is that the overall pass rate is around 10% presently.
Be aware that all the promised bases will only open if and when they get enough guys. I think the present number is 6.
Hope that clears up some of the misconceptions out there.
You could not be further from the truth. The foreign guys presently in CS do not have any regrets. Good money, easy flying and CS do a great job when it comes to roster requests. We all have 1-3 weeks off over Xmas. I don't know of many other outfits that accept the resultant roster inefficiencies to give that.
Many of us do occasionally fly single crew domestic. I believe everyone logs everything as P1 but we are all older fellla's and don't give a crap about logbook hours anymore. Yes, the Chinese guy is PIC on international flights. The reason being is that he is Chinese and so are the cabin crew allowing better comms. Simple as that!
Flights are usually split in half so you do the TKOF or the LDG. Flights over about 12hrs are split 3 ways.
As mentioned earlier, don't worry about the details until you get accepted. My understanding is that the overall pass rate is around 10% presently.
Be aware that all the promised bases will only open if and when they get enough guys. I think the present number is 6.
Hope that clears up some of the misconceptions out there.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Over the Pacific mostly
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only question is whether you can log PIC time when P2 and didn't command the aircraft for takeoff and landing. That is not addressed in the regs so ask the airline when you get there what their policy is.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have never flown in China and have never flown long-haul or anything that would require augmented / double crew so I have no clue as to what you can log as PIC on those flights.
My thinking (completely unconfirmed and probably wrong) was that only the PIC designated by CSA (the Chinese Captain) was able to log as PIC the entire flight, weather he is flying, sleeping, or moving his bowels.
It seems a bit awkward though, that I can log as PIC when I'm physically operating, even when the designated PIC for the flight (the Chinese Captain) is also logging while sleeping in the bunks. That would place 2 captains logging PIC for the same leg, which seems a bit contrary to my understanding of time logging.
Having said that, I can understand that CSA would initially place the restriction of always having to fly as part of a double crew during the first year or so to Captains like myself, who are non-rated, have never flown wide body or long-haul, are new to China and their ways and have never operated ETOPS, Cargo only acft, etc...
I'm just afraid that we get stuck in that status longer than desired / needed while the "advertised" bases get delayed and with a bank check in their hand that would make a potential move difficult if the promises and believes don't get delivered.
I'm waiting to read a draft contract for the job to see if I can clarify myself a little bit and see more beauties than threats for this gig...
My thinking (completely unconfirmed and probably wrong) was that only the PIC designated by CSA (the Chinese Captain) was able to log as PIC the entire flight, weather he is flying, sleeping, or moving his bowels.
It seems a bit awkward though, that I can log as PIC when I'm physically operating, even when the designated PIC for the flight (the Chinese Captain) is also logging while sleeping in the bunks. That would place 2 captains logging PIC for the same leg, which seems a bit contrary to my understanding of time logging.
Having said that, I can understand that CSA would initially place the restriction of always having to fly as part of a double crew during the first year or so to Captains like myself, who are non-rated, have never flown wide body or long-haul, are new to China and their ways and have never operated ETOPS, Cargo only acft, etc...
I'm just afraid that we get stuck in that status longer than desired / needed while the "advertised" bases get delayed and with a bank check in their hand that would make a potential move difficult if the promises and believes don't get delivered.
I'm waiting to read a draft contract for the job to see if I can clarify myself a little bit and see more beauties than threats for this gig...
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uae
Posts: 2,777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess if you are so hung up on the logging of hours you must not have that many and are only concerned about building hours for the next job. You can have any of my 15000 , I don't think I need any more.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fatbus,
I don't want any of your 15,000 hours, neither do I need sarcasm from skygods...
And YES, I'm concerned about the capacity to move on to the next job should my current one not please me to my satisfaction.
I don't want any of your 15,000 hours, neither do I need sarcasm from skygods...
And YES, I'm concerned about the capacity to move on to the next job should my current one not please me to my satisfaction.