Ryanair uses all the runway.
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Added definition of stopway
And the answer is ....
(EU OPS)
clearway’ means a defined rectangular area on the ground or water under the control of the appropriate authority, selected or prepared as a suitable area over which an aeroplane may make a portion of its initial climb to a specified height;
And about braking index of grass .......
accelerate-stop distance available (ASDA)’ means the length of the take-off run available plus the length of stopway, if such stopway is declared available by the State of the aerodrome and is capable of bearing the mass of the aeroplane under the prevailing operating conditions;
..and where I have written EU OPS, of course it is now EASA Ops, full title of the literary masterpiece is Regulation (EU) 965/2012 on air operations.
(EU OPS)
clearway’ means a defined rectangular area on the ground or water under the control of the appropriate authority, selected or prepared as a suitable area over which an aeroplane may make a portion of its initial climb to a specified height;
And about braking index of grass .......
accelerate-stop distance available (ASDA)’ means the length of the take-off run available plus the length of stopway, if such stopway is declared available by the State of the aerodrome and is capable of bearing the mass of the aeroplane under the prevailing operating conditions;
..and where I have written EU OPS, of course it is now EASA Ops, full title of the literary masterpiece is Regulation (EU) 965/2012 on air operations.
Last edited by EMIT; 17th Oct 2017 at 07:00.
EMIT thanks, so (understandably) "under control of the appropriate authority" but no requirement to be be within the airport boundary.
AERODROME OBSTACLE CHART - ICAO
From CAP 168:-
AERODROME OBSTACLE CHART - ICAO
From CAP 168:-
A clearway need not have bearing strength and may be land or water. It may extend outside the aerodrome boundary only if the aerodrome authority establishes such control that will ensure that the clearway will be kept free from obstacles or that the clearway plane will not be infringed.
Last edited by fireflybob; 16th Oct 2017 at 21:43.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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You are starting to become hysterical ~ lynch mobs; really?
Instead of taking a swipe at everyone, how about explaining why it is perfectly normal.
You are simply whipping up further interest in the event. Calm down
Instead of taking a swipe at everyone, how about explaining why it is perfectly normal.
You are simply whipping up further interest in the event. Calm down
It wouldn't need anyone with more than an 'A' level in physics to refute that the video shown here is acceptable as an accurate scientific record.
And parkfell,
misd-agin - great post! I think we can see how public hanging by lynch mobs came about! 
Last edited by parabellum; 17th Oct 2017 at 00:50.
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I presume that the Airport perimeter road at Bristol Airport is owned and controlled by the Airport despite being open to the public.
It stands to reason that clearway must be controlled by the Airport, otherwise anybody could put up a 35' crane in the flight path.
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I've missed if anyone knows where the flight was bound for. If someone does, and there are any B738 operators reading this with their i-pads handy, perhaps they could crunch some numbers for a full load and enlighten us. I would be interested if this was a F5 full chat or not.
I remember one day, B757, when the end of the runway seemed to be coming up faster than usual on a reduced take off day. Option, increase thrust; we'd gone past VMCG, but in any case....... It turned out to be a mirage and optical illusion. Unlikely at BRS, but I'm curious if there was more thrust available. I didn't detect any increase in engine sound. Afterwards, a pilot mate of mine (in the days when you could) came for a chat and asked what happened. He'd felt & heard the increase in thrust to full umph.
I remember one day, B757, when the end of the runway seemed to be coming up faster than usual on a reduced take off day. Option, increase thrust; we'd gone past VMCG, but in any case....... It turned out to be a mirage and optical illusion. Unlikely at BRS, but I'm curious if there was more thrust available. I didn't detect any increase in engine sound. Afterwards, a pilot mate of mine (in the days when you could) came for a chat and asked what happened. He'd felt & heard the increase in thrust to full umph.
Clearway must be within the Airport boundary
Under "control of the airport authority" and "within the airport boundary" are not necessarily the same thing.
Semantics I know but I can think of one or two airports in the UK (including BRS) where the clearway extends outside the airport boundary.
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For the non-pilots reading this, Clearway and stopway are two different things.
A stopway is an area beyond the designated runway available as extra stopping distance. It may be surfaced with an energy absorbant material. This is clearly inside the airport boundary with no obstructions. Bristol does not have a stopway.
A clearway is a fan shaped area beyond the runway with no obstructions above the minimal angle of climb. Runway 27 at Bristol has no obstructions beyond the ILS antennas because the ground falls away so if you can clear the ILS you are away free. Other airfields will often have buildings, trees etc obstructing the approach and climb out paths to consider.
A stopway is an area beyond the designated runway available as extra stopping distance. It may be surfaced with an energy absorbant material. This is clearly inside the airport boundary with no obstructions. Bristol does not have a stopway.
A clearway is a fan shaped area beyond the runway with no obstructions above the minimal angle of climb. Runway 27 at Bristol has no obstructions beyond the ILS antennas because the ground falls away so if you can clear the ILS you are away free. Other airfields will often have buildings, trees etc obstructing the approach and climb out paths to consider.
Last edited by The Ancient Geek; 17th Oct 2017 at 08:25.
I presume that the Airport perimeter road at Bristol Airport is owned and controlled by the Airport despite being open to the public.
If you extend the RW 27 centreline from the eastern end of the runway by 1000 metres which is near enough the amount of clearway the clearway extends well outside the airport boundary. Other than the minor road just off the western end (which would I'm sure be under control of the airport authority) the only other public road is just east of the RW 27 threshold. For this reason RW 09 only has about 60 metres of clearway.
de minimus non curat lex
Talking of CLEARWAYS ( a clear divergence from topic) , when Sumburgh (Shetlands) did their extension of runway 09/27 using 70,000 tons of rocks imported from Scandinavia circa 2005,
the runway extremities ended by a sea wall either end.
And as the airport was not able to prohibit boats from entering the areas along the extended centrelines, it could not be used as a CLEARWAY.
Not that I could ever recall seeing a boat in what would be the potential "defined areas".
Yes, the area must be CONTROLLED by the airport authority.
the runway extremities ended by a sea wall either end.
And as the airport was not able to prohibit boats from entering the areas along the extended centrelines, it could not be used as a CLEARWAY.
Not that I could ever recall seeing a boat in what would be the potential "defined areas".
Yes, the area must be CONTROLLED by the airport authority.
Talking of clearways: There are many runways that end at the water's edge. My sailing has never taken me past one, but surely there must be maritime measures in place to prevent, or coordinate with, shipping movements past the ends of such runways?
SXM comes to mind: it would have been, let's say, interesting to have been in a boat on the extended centerline at the time of the Westjet incident in March.
SXM comes to mind: it would have been, let's say, interesting to have been in a boat on the extended centerline at the time of the Westjet incident in March.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
When I was still working, I occasionally took a -700 from Bristol to Banjul, some 2,400 nm, approaching 6 hours flying time. A full passenger load, and a fair amount of fuel. It's certainly not the longest runway in the world, but it was doable.
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It doesnt matter how long the runway is, someone will always struggle to get over the fence. A good example is Harare (previously Salisbury) at 4725m which is best tackled at night. Afternoon departures are a BAD idea.
There have been some very relevant posts about operating aircraft at the limits of performance. If you’re used to moderately loaded twins out of 3,000m+ runways in benign conditions, then doing the same thing at WAT limits can be quite educational.
I flew a 777-300 out of HKG in the summer at RTOW and had my eyebrows raised enough to flag the takeoff to our perf guys to see if there was anything untoward about it - which there wasn’t. With Vr nearly 180kts, boy does the end of the runway come at you quickly. I’m not sure what it would have looked like on video but it didn’t feel that high over the opposite threshold. Lucky it was dark! Reminded me of NBO, feeling that I was starting a game drive...
As pointed out in previous replies, on a short runway using maximum performance, you only have to be slightly late/slow in a few areas to make the resulting takeoff *look* marginal on two engines. However, if you lost a power plant at V1, the slower acceleration and extra adrenaline would probably lead to following the planned flightpath with a bit more accuracy. If the clearway at BRS was included in their calculations, then as long as the wheels leave the paved surface before the end of it, they had 1,000m+ to make the 35’. In practical terms, as the ground falls away it doesn’t really matter, although the performance would always be calculated to leave at least this margin.
I flew a 777-300 out of HKG in the summer at RTOW and had my eyebrows raised enough to flag the takeoff to our perf guys to see if there was anything untoward about it - which there wasn’t. With Vr nearly 180kts, boy does the end of the runway come at you quickly. I’m not sure what it would have looked like on video but it didn’t feel that high over the opposite threshold. Lucky it was dark! Reminded me of NBO, feeling that I was starting a game drive...
As pointed out in previous replies, on a short runway using maximum performance, you only have to be slightly late/slow in a few areas to make the resulting takeoff *look* marginal on two engines. However, if you lost a power plant at V1, the slower acceleration and extra adrenaline would probably lead to following the planned flightpath with a bit more accuracy. If the clearway at BRS was included in their calculations, then as long as the wheels leave the paved surface before the end of it, they had 1,000m+ to make the 35’. In practical terms, as the ground falls away it doesn’t really matter, although the performance would always be calculated to leave at least this margin.
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Talking of clearways: There are many runways that end at the water's edge. My sailing has never taken me past one, but surely there must be maritime measures in place to prevent, or coordinate with, shipping movements past the ends of such runways?
SXM comes to mind: it would have been, let's say, interesting to have been in a boat on the extended centerline at the time of the Westjet incident in March.
SXM comes to mind: it would have been, let's say, interesting to have been in a boat on the extended centerline at the time of the Westjet incident in March.
About a year ago we were flying into PHLI (Lihue on the island of Kauai). A cruise ship had just departed Nahiwilli harbor and I tried to time our approach to fly over the ship but, alas, it was a little too late for us. Those cruise ships certainly stand out off a rural island.
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On another thread I asked the question and the answer was that Clearway is limited to 50% of TORA. It can't go on forever. I must admit watching some a/c seem to struggle their way over the fence. BAC1-11 was one. I wonder what would have happened on only 50% of thrust. I've even watched some 4-pots freighters seem to climb very flat & slowly and wondered what would have happened on 75% of thrust. Faith. In this BRS case I'd have been more concerned about the 'stopping' case, if it had been necessary. It has been said that TORA = ASDA. It seems it would have been very tight.
Still waiting for some B738 pilots to post their i-pad numbers for BRS RW27.
Still waiting for some B738 pilots to post their i-pad numbers for BRS RW27.
RAT 5 : I used to wonder in the same manner. I transferred from B767 to A340 in my last year. A hot, heavy B767 for LHR; Open the taps and there was that re-assuring thump in the small of the back. V1 call was pretty rapidly followed by VR in the same breath. Landmarks like terminal buildings, freight bases, crew car-parks seemed to whizz underneath . SNY on the scarebus was my intro. No throttles, funny little idents but Perf A is what we are all on about. Hot, heavy for LHR. No re-assuring thump in the back. Could have placed my breakfast order while awaiting the V1 call. Waiting for VR alerted me to a double pilot incapacitation situation possibility. NOTHING whizzed underneath but there was a slow passing by of the terminal, freight bases, crew car parks, Mcdonalds and a couple of fishing craft where crew had dived into the water watching our approach. Piano keys ? I think we played the National Anthem on them.
After settling down, I asked my intro Captain what the thing was like with two engines out, same side, j e r s t after V1. I got a concerned look with the response...." we don't even THINK about stuff like that ."
In this discussion, I am siding with Parabllum's highly experienced and admired posts. Pax in the terminal with hand held devices will have observed me in my Boeing lift off abeam the terminal. In my A340, I often wondered who might be filming my lift-off, same conditions, bit heavier but powered by four hair driers as we got a level view of new building projects in the harbour area !
Oh, can't resist a playful prod;- Yet, there are some who will try and convince that if we REDUCED thrust, we could have lifted off an even higher RTOW. Cripes, glad I joined the PERF A burning books ceremony after passing the exam !
After settling down, I asked my intro Captain what the thing was like with two engines out, same side, j e r s t after V1. I got a concerned look with the response...." we don't even THINK about stuff like that ."
In this discussion, I am siding with Parabllum's highly experienced and admired posts. Pax in the terminal with hand held devices will have observed me in my Boeing lift off abeam the terminal. In my A340, I often wondered who might be filming my lift-off, same conditions, bit heavier but powered by four hair driers as we got a level view of new building projects in the harbour area !
Oh, can't resist a playful prod;- Yet, there are some who will try and convince that if we REDUCED thrust, we could have lifted off an even higher RTOW. Cripes, glad I joined the PERF A burning books ceremony after passing the exam !
A 4-holer will be more sluggish on all engines than a twin because it only has 33% more power available than that required to meet the OEI performance requirements. The twin has 100% more available.
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Not quite, single engine out climb requirements are lower for a two engined aircraft. Then there are higher all engine operating climb requirements (due to
PANS-OPS) that even it out a bit.
PANS-OPS) that even it out a bit.