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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:29   #2341 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If you think that man has built a computer system than cannot be hacked, given enough effort and determination, you are deluded.
I have a lot more experience than you do in the IT industry my friend. Please don't try to teach granny how to suck eggs.
As Bruce Schneier put it (he's one of the world's top security gurus): "Any competent security expert can build a system so secure that he or she cannot think of any way of hacking it." But someone else will.

Even if the system isn't connected to anything else, it can be hacked by manufacture/maintenance/user subversion. The most dangerous security error is to imagine your system can't be hacked.
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:33   #2342 (permalink)
 
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Lot of misinformation regarding what a "hack" actually is. The ability to secure root access is largely a function of a true operating system allowing you to reach a command prompt that will accept an executable file. On a system like an avionics "computer" you have a fundamentally different purpose and architecture entirely. As mentioned by those with an intimate working knowledge even with full access and source code the system is not easy to manipulate.


Certainly not an expert but I'd wager very few entities have the combination of specific system knowledge and expertise to accomplish this, basically it would take major resources at a governmental level.


The real question is would access enable someone with lesser experience to degrade or destroy the system or interfere with the genuine inputs in such a way as to render the system inoperable. This is entirely different then actually hacking the system.
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:33   #2343 (permalink)
 
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xgjunkie

According to governments monitoring the area with sophisticated satellites watching for flashes, explosions, etc....none seen

The scenario is possible that the plane came apart with no fireball and is near where you say.

Never has been a verification about batteries. Just questions

I just don't think so.

Last edited by Old Boeing Driver; 12th Mar 2014 at 19:35. Reason: Add battery comment
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:34   #2344 (permalink)
 
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Yes!

FREDAcheck, as an IT professional I agree completely with that statement.

Some systems are more robust than others but none anr beyond compromise. As you correctly stated the human who build these systems are a security risk/weak point in their own right.
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:35   #2345 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by KingAir1978 View Post
Lost in Saigon, that would depend on how long the descent took... Maybe they kept the same speed due to structural failure, they would then descend at let's say 2500 fpm? It would take them a good 10 minutes...
"If the aircraft descended to FL100 the crew and all the passengers would have recovered from the effects of hypoxia"

Even a slow descent to FL100 would be recoverable.

What part of that is incorrect?
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:37   #2346 (permalink)
 
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Has the recording of supposed contact with the Naritan bound pilot been examined?
From my understanding this has not been convincingly ruled out as a vital piece of evidence.
Why?
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:39   #2347 (permalink)
 
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Where is MH370?

Start with a circle centered on KUL and radius A/C endurance.
Now eliminate areas covered by other states civil radar if they confirm no radar trace.
Do the same for other states military radar.
Ask neighbouring states for any reports of A/C wreckage reports on land. This is not a sparsely populated area.
Continue in this vein until most likely area for search established.

An empirical method like this is more likely to produce a result than grasping at straws of 'possible turns' or 'fire in the sky' reports.
At the moment it seems the Malaysian authorities are jumping to solutions and that's never a good thing to do.
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:40   #2348 (permalink)
 
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even more ominous thought. What if the hijackers need an airplane for some terrorist mission. Possibly something as horrible as loading a nuke on the plane and flying it into some city. That would also explain why no one has claimed the hijacking, they would want to keep this quite until their plan is carried out.
I just can't see that as a possibility. Just grabbed a trade a plane and looked. B747-200 combi $2 million US. Last time I looked 727's were going for under $250K. I would think that anyone that could come up with a nuke would have the scratch to just go buy a plane, and not draw the attention a hijacking would bring.

Last edited by LASJayhawk; 12th Mar 2014 at 19:42. Reason: Typed the 747 as 727
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:41   #2349 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Blondie2005 View Post
However, I am absolutely flabbergasted that my phone and tablet can be tracked by GPS if they go astray, but according to an article on the BBC planes cannot, and black boxes cannot.
Your tablet can't be tracked if the wi-fi is turned off. Your phone can't be tracked if it's in 'airplane mode'. Neither can be tracked if they're 2,000m underwater.

Similarly, you can't track an aircraft by ADS if it's not sending ADS messages anywhere, due to transmitter failure or whatever. Had they continued sending ADS messages, we'd already know where they were to within a few tens of miles.
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:43   #2350 (permalink)
 
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If you don't want your cell phone to be trackable, you have to remove the battery.
Source: federal agent who goes to my church.
Hmmm ... thought so - last time I'll question what a woman tells me, no matter how ridiculous it seems!!! LOL
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:43   #2351 (permalink)
 
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As Bruce Schneier put it (he's one of the world's top security gurus): "Any competent security expert can build a system so secure that he or she cannot think of any way of hacking it." But someone else will.

Even if the system isn't connected to anything else, it can be hacked by manufacture/maintenance/user subversion. The most dangerous security error is to imagine your system can't be hacked.
Yes I know who Bruce Schneier is, and yes I agree with the general statement that nothing is unhackable given enough time.

However the basic sanity test of viability still very much puts WiFi / remote control of a Boeing 777 firmly into the Hollywood fiction category. I doubt Mr Schneier would disagree with me there.
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:44   #2352 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by phil gollin View Post
I ASSUME that Boeing and Rolls-Royce have representatives with whichever organisation is in charge of the incident investigation ?
Yes. It was so reported in the news. (Boeing, Not sure of RR).
Quote:
Does the FAA also have have representatives there ?
NTSB has a team either on the way or already there. Also reported in the press.
Quote:
And, again, does anyone know the nominal duration of the Sonar locator beacons ?
The acoustic beacons should last about 30 days underwater. You can find info about them here.

EDIT:
More info on TSO-C121 spec beacons here ....
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012.../2012-5213.htm
http://estock.aviall.com/pdf/catpage/1991.pdf
http://www.sea-avionics.com/lc/cart....bstring=DK-100
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:46   #2353 (permalink)
 
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Ture but . . .

"Yes I know who Bruce Schneier is, and yes I agree with the general statement that nothing is unhackable given enough time.

However the basic sanity test of viability still very much puts WiFi / remote control of a Boeing 777 firmly into the Hollywood fiction category. I doubt Mr Schneier would disagree with me there."

mixture, what you say here is true however, a hacker doesn't have to take control of the aircraft to cause an incident.

They could just target specific components of the system (for example disable comms) and cause an accident without actually trying to fly the aircraft.
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:47   #2354 (permalink)
 
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worth pointing out pax oxy pointless above about 25k.
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:48   #2355 (permalink)
 
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"Not your typical windows desktop"

Maybe not, but laptop based scanning & sniffing tools will soon expose open ports and capture and analyze traffic going in & out of the server including interfacing app ID's and passwords (even if encrypted). Non-mainstream O/S's did not stop Flame or Stuxnet which were specially crafted to target SCADA systems. It is not beyond the bounds of probability that sooner or later the bad actors will figure out how to craft malware that has been specifically tailored to interface with aircraft borne servers such as the T7.

The prospect of Windows like O/S's being used on the 787 and A340's is even more scary.
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:50   #2356 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post
worth pointing out pax oxy pointless above about 25k.
Please explain what you mean.....


Last edited by Lost in Saigon; 12th Mar 2014 at 19:55. Reason: Image added
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:54   #2357 (permalink)
 
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This news report states that Malaysian Airlines does receive ACARS data from its Boeing jets, but that it declined to have these data shared with Boeing. Further, it cites Malaysian Airlines as stating that it received no ACARS data from the missing jet.
Malaysian Air Said to Opt Out of Boeing Plan to Share Jets? Data - Yahoo Finance

Of course the problem with this whole situation is that other than for knowing that the jet has not landed at any major airport, we are sure of absolutely nothing else about this flight. So much has been stated and retracted, nothing can be relied upon.
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:54   #2358 (permalink)
 
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truckflyer (and it seems others)

Quote:
From I recall in decompression you should switch TA/RA to TA - is it not plausible that in error they instead put transponder into STBY mode?
No, that's not in the Boeing procedure for a rapid descent.

General point and as I believe has been stated - on some 777's (if not all, customer option's and all that) the passenger oxygen is supplied from bottles located under cabin floor and aft of the wing.
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:56   #2359 (permalink)
 
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PA28Viking AND then my question is: Would there still be logs of that aircraft-DME communication?
DME is a very old system. All the ground station does is listen for a pulse pair and sent out a reply after a fixed delay (50uS for X channel 56uS for Y channel) it has no idea what interrogated it.
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 19:56   #2360 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
It is not pressurized oxygen, which is needed above 25,000 feet to get into your lungs.
So you are saying the B777 does not have the correct Pax O2 masks?

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