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Old 17th Apr 2012, 22:58   #121 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: West Coast Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosswindaviator View Post
I guess big pistons forever is smokey? Or was it the bandit...

Being non British and non US, but having lived in both... They are the hardest sometimes to understand on the radio cause of their local accents...
Since I fly a firebomber "Smokey" would be more appropriate for the work flying. For pleasure flying in my Nanchang CJ6A "Bandit" would fit nicely as I usually get to kick ass on tail chases.

As for the topic at hand the controller should have alerted CFR that there may have been an issue immediately and then actively worked to resolve the confusion. Instead he pretty much sat on his hands. With a potential cockpit/cabin fire seconds can mean the difference between a successful cabin evacuation or a smoking hulk full of dead people.

Since I am guessing the closest you are going to get to handling an airliner emergency is listening to the FA while seated in seat 34B you probably should not be insulting aviation professionals....
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 12:53   #122 (permalink)
dns
 
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What would happen if the pilot in question had used non-standard RT during a sim check? He'd be grounded and sent back for re-training.

Surely he should have his "professional" head on when he's in the front of an aircraft. He clearly didn't in this case... Either he panicked, or he doesn't give a damn about standard RT!

I know his primary contact is the controller, but it could be vital that his transmission is heard and understood by other pilots as well. For example, if someone is on approach and cleared to land behind another aircraft (as happens all the time in the US, which personally I find stupid but hey-ho), and the aircraft ahead gets into difficulties, surely it's pretty damn important that they know about it too and so they can prepare themselves for the go-around etc?
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 14:25   #123 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
dns

Surely he should have his "professional" head on when he's in the front of an aircraft. He clearly didn't in this case... Either he panicked, or he doesn't give a damn about standard RT!

I know his primary contact is the controller, but it could be vital that his transmission is heard and understood by other pilots as well.
Pure, unadulterated rubbish.

The crew of the BA 777 who pancaked their aircraft short of the threshold when faced with a similar-type situation (within 90 seconds of landing faced with a sudden, dire situation forcing immediate action by both crew to keep the aircraft flying and under control). Mere seconds before impact the captain transmitted;

"Mayday mayday. Speedbird Speedbird. Nine-five nine five."

Except that they were Speedbird 38, not Speedbird 95 or Speedbird 9595 (however you might interpret that double number).

Wrong call sign. No location. No nature of emergency. The only reason the controller guessed correctly as to who and where that aircraft was visibility from the tower cab allowed him to see a 777 parked in the dirt where one wasn't supposed to be.

The captain then went on to give his PA evacuate order over the tower freq, instead of the PA.

Perhaps instead of asking this...

Quote:
What would happen if the pilot in question had used non-standard RT during a sim check? He'd be grounded and sent back for re-training.
Maybe a better question you should ask is why a highly-trained pilot would use his sim check callsign and commit flagrant sins of R/T ommision during an actual, real-life emergency? I'm guessing, but I bet that BA Captain never did such a thing in the sim.

Panic? Hardly. A BA senior Captain who doesn't care about standard R/T?....that's too ludicrous to contemplate. Didn't have his professional head on? That BA crew kept flying the aircraft first and foremost and as a result, everyone survived when the result could have easily been otherwise.

I'd say the only problem here is you don't understand the difference between a dire situation that DEMANDS immediate, full attention to the task at hand with the accompanying survival response of brains going into hyperdrive (yes, even to the point less important priorities such as R/T aren't perfect or are innacurate) and a situation that doesn't. Frankly, any pilot committing anything less than 100 percent of their cognitive resources to flying the aircraft when that's what's needed is doing it wrong.

A cockpit of an aircraft suddenly filling with smoke during landing IMC to the point visibility inside is less than a foot (according to that company's info) requiring immediate action to include donning masks etc is a bona fide dire situation requiring the full focus and attention of both pilots to make it survivable. This is not the same situation as losing an engine (with no fire indication) after takeoff on a CAVOK day which in some aircraft I've flown doesn't even fall under the category of an "emergency" condition, but rather as an "abnormal" (What was that Thompson clip anyway....something that serves as aural porn for air-cadet one-stripers?).

Armchair aces commenting on that crews' "professionalism" based on an imperfect or garbled radio callsign through an o2 mask is a load of utter garbage. "Emergency" IS standard phraseology in the U.S., and that crew DID announce...twice...the most vital info (especially so because vis was 1/2 mile )...where they were and what they were doing....evacuating on Rwy 34R. This was heard by the controller, and yes, other aircraft.

Last edited by PukinDog; 18th Apr 2012 at 15:09.
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 14:53   #124 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Happened to be looking through the Jeppesen Private Pilot Written guide the other day, for a youth-program ground school that I help teach.

It specifies that the proper usage for an instructor, say, taking over the yoke is:

"I have the flight controls."

"You have the flight controls."

Whatever happened to "My airplane/Your airplane"? Saves six words and is explicit, unmistakable...
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 15:05   #125 (permalink)
dns
 
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Pete Burkill on the BA038 made a balls-up with the flight number, hardly a difficult mistake to make.

On this occasion, the guy decided to say "roll the trucks" instead of the bog standard "mayday, mayday, mayday" call.

There's a big difference between a balls up with a callsign and saying something like that!
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 15:13   #126 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
On this occasion, the guy decided to say "roll the trucks" instead of the bog standard "mayday, mayday, mayday" call.
He said "Emergency" instead of "Mayday, mayday, mayday", not "Roll the trucks" instead of "Mayday mayday mayday". He also stated the nature of the problem (smoke in the cockpit), which is enough for a controller to declare him an emergency aircraft on his own authority without ever hearing either "Emergency" or "Mayday" uttered.

"Emergency" is standard, unambiguous FAA approved-and-published R/T phraseology in the U.S., understood by every pilot and controller alike.

And Captain B balled-up a lot more R/T than only giving a bogus callsign.

Deal with it.

Last edited by PukinDog; 18th Apr 2012 at 15:46.
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 15:16   #127 (permalink)
dns
 
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Why do you have such an unpleasant, aggressive attitude towards posters?
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 15:25   #128 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
dns

Why do you have such an unpleasant, aggressive attitude towards posters?
I don't. I respond to content in posts. If that content includes declarative, unsubstantiated twaddle I'll give my reasons why I believe it to be so. If you find disagreement unpleasant or view disagreement with content as aggressive because you are the twaddle-poster, your problem not mine.
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 15:54   #129 (permalink)
dns
 
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Phrases such as "deal with it" aren't viewed as particularly pleasant by most people I'm afraid...
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 16:08   #130 (permalink)
 
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Dns,

You're the one being aggressive and arrogant. You've made statements that show you simply don't understand what is standard RT phraseology in the US and you've assumed that just because it's done a certain way in your neck of the woods, it should be the same elsewhere.

Just to make this simple for you......

In Domestic Ops in the US, one can "Declare an emergency" as opposed to saying "Mayday, mayday, mayday". Done it myself twice and it worked well without any confusion displayed by ATC.

Also, "Roll the trucks" while not specifically mentioned in the FAA Pilot/Controller Glossary, is a colloquialism used by US Pilots, within the US. It's such a common phrase that I would be amazed if any ATCO would be unaware of its meaning.

Perhaps you should go back to the CC forum and pontificate about matters you are actually well versed in, rather than spouting off about something you obviously aren't.
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 16:16   #131 (permalink)
dns
 
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I'm actually an FAA qualified pilot, trained in the US...

Kenny, out of interest did you actually use the word "mayday" during your incidents? Not trying to be cocky here, I'm just curious. I was of the understanding that calling "mayday" was the internationally understood phrase which every pilot (or seaman for that matter) would understand, regardless of their location.
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 16:22   #132 (permalink)
 
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I'm sorry you feel that way. Now, if you'd ever like to substantiate the the highlighted content below where you declare...

Quote:
dns

Surely he should have his "professional" head on when he's in the front of an aircraft. He clearly didn't in this case... Either he panicked, or he doesn't give a damn about standard RT!
...with something of merit, get back to me.
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 16:36   #133 (permalink)
 
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Mayday was not used, since it's not required in US Domestic Ops. I simply stated to ATC that I was "Declaring an emergency".

As much as some of us like to believe there is only one way to skin the proverbial aviation cat, the phrase "ICAO standard phraseology" is almost nonsense.

I've flown in Europe, Australia and the US and they all have their quirks and colloquialisms. For example; what the Euros would consider a standard Mayday call would be a debrief item during a sim ride in Australia, as they feel the need to repeat the call sign 3 times, as well. So you see, there's standard RT and then there's standard RT.
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 16:47   #134 (permalink)
 
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Declaring an emergency

In US "I'm declaring an emergency" then stating the nature of it, is PERFECTLY acceptable. Roll the trucks as previously noted is everywhere in US understood by controllers. Flight checks and real emergencies have some things in common, but in the situation here, stress can get the better even of fully competent professionals. Admittedly, in other parts of the world, roll the trucks may not be understood. In my opinion pilots did a GREAT job. Controller should respond to the transmission first and ask questions later.
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 18:41   #135 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
dns

I'm actually an FAA qualified pilot, trained in the US...
If you're an FAA-trained pilot, then you are supposed to be familiar with not only FAA phraseology but also with the Regs, including those that pertain to uncontrolled field ops. So it's while it's troubling in itself that you don't know (or refuse to accept) this;

Quote:
FAA Airmans Information Manual, Pilot/Controller Glossary: "EMERGENCY− A distress or an urgency condition'',
...it's particularily worrisome considering this fundamental FAA Regulation..

Quote:
Sec. 91.113 — Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over all other air traffic


I'm wondering how you....as a U.S.-trained pilot... could adhere to the above regulation and yield the right-of-way to an aircraft in distress if you don't know (or refuse to believe) that another pilot declaring "Emergency" is in fact one? At an uncontrolled airport with no controller to direct your actions, are you going to refuse to yield to an aircraft who's pilot has declared "Emergency" instead of using the phrase "Mayday, mayday, mayday"? Will you ignore FAA-approved phraseology and break an FAA regulation that is the starting point for Right-of-way rules and wind up getting in the way, making his/her bad situation worse?

In the U.S., if you choose to transmit "Mayday" other pilots will respect it. As a U.S. pilot in U.S. airspace, however, it's also imcumbent upon you to respect an "Emergency" transmission as one coming from an aircraft in distress, and respond accordingly.
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 19:43   #136 (permalink)
 
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Standard RT

As a European PPL we have learned the priority between different types of R/T communication, where ‘Mayday’ have the highest priority, and ‘Pan Pan’ have the second highest priority.
A European PPL could in principle be flying in US airspace without knowing that he is expected to back off when the world ‘Emergency’ is used.
It is important that we all use the same standard ICAO Phraseology, whatever that is.
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 20:33   #137 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
HighWind

As a European PPL we have learned the priority between different types of R/T communication, where ‘Mayday’ have the highest priority, and ‘Pan Pan’ have the second highest priority.
A European PPL could in principle be flying in US airspace without knowing that he is expected to back off when the world ‘Emergency’ is used.
It is important that we all use the same standard ICAO Phraseology, whatever that is.
As a pilot, it's your responsibility to familiarize yourself with the rules and regulations of any country you operate into, whether it's FAA vs. JAR-ops or differences country-to-country to ICAO "standard". In this case, the FAA's "Emergency" supplements ICAO phraseology as long as it's used in the U.S., it doesn't negate it. But this recognition of ICAO phraseology doesn't negate your responsibility to know FAA phraseology as it relates to regulation while you are operating in the U.S., or to comply with it.

It's no different than my responsibity to know what the Transition Level is in Qatar, the max holding speed at 6000' is in Germany, the Chinese metric altimetry system, or Brit ATC legalese when they aren't coming up with a new way to phrase clearance to climb on a SID and what they mean this month. When I operate in those countries, or anywhere else some of the other hundreds of differences that exist, I'm expected to know them.

I've converted my ATPL to 3 additional licenses over the years expat flying and taken a respective Air Law test for each one, and not one of those was mere transposition of ICAO-standard rules and regs. Perusing the "Differences to ICAO" section in the Jepps is routine part of flight planning into any country; there's plenty there to read. You're kidding yourself if you think you can close your eyes, point the nose across all borders, and depend on "ICAO-standard" to see you through.

Last edited by PukinDog; 18th Apr 2012 at 21:04.
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 21:25   #138 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Dns,

If I find myself to be flying somewhere in the SIM, I'll fly with you.

On the other hand, if I'm in a real aircraft, I want someone else.
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Old 18th Apr 2012, 22:59   #139 (permalink)
 
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Proceedures.

Jeeeeez... you need a set of proceedures and stick to them. It's so easy for the sailing fraternity in the UK (at least the ones who paid attention during their VHF cert for Yachtmaster/Coastal Skipper). mayday distress signals boating I can still recant this "memory item" 12 years after the course (and 9 years after selling my boat).
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Old 19th Apr 2012, 00:26   #140 (permalink)
 
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Little pistons never

For someone with your skills your guess is far off...
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