Air India Express B738 crash
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Costa del Sol
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aterpster:
I will not apologize to you, of course.
If you remember, you insulted our late colleague.
Is it civilized way to insult someone who can not defend himself??
Shame on you, over.
I will not apologize to you, of course.
If you remember, you insulted our late colleague.
Is it civilized way to insult someone who can not defend himself??
Shame on you, over.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yankee Whiskey:
It's all in the official report including photographs.
Excerpts rom the report:
Conflicting reporting; Bloogs states runway drenched and below's input mentions dry runway. Keep it factual fellows and galls.
Excerpts rom the report:
Despite the EGPWS warnings and calls from the First Officer to ‘Go Around’, the Captain had persisted with the approach in unstabilised conditions. The final touch down of the aircraft was at about 5200 ft from the beginning of R/W 24, leaving only about 2800 ft to the end of paved surface, to stop the aircraft.
Soon after the touchdown, the Captain had selected Thrust Reverser. But, within a very short time of applying brakes, the Captain had initiated a rather delayed ‘go around’ or an attempted take-off, in contravention to Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) laid down by the manufacturer i.e. Boeing Commercial Airplane Company, USA.
When the aircraft came in contact with Mangalore Area at 05:36 hours IST, the First Officer was given the following weather information from METAR of 05:30 hours:- “Winds - Calm, Visibility - 6km, Cloud - Few 2000 ft, Temperature - 27o, Dew Point - 26, QNH - 1006 hPa” At 06:04:19 hours IST when the aircraft was given landing clearance for R/W 24 by ATC, Mangalore, the winds were reported to be calm.
No significant weather had been either forecasted or reported en-route from Dubai to Mangalore. The visibility at Mangalore was 6 km at the time of accident. As such the prevailing weather conditions did not contribute towards the accident.
Soon after the touchdown, the Captain had selected Thrust Reverser. But, within a very short time of applying brakes, the Captain had initiated a rather delayed ‘go around’ or an attempted take-off, in contravention to Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) laid down by the manufacturer i.e. Boeing Commercial Airplane Company, USA.
When the aircraft came in contact with Mangalore Area at 05:36 hours IST, the First Officer was given the following weather information from METAR of 05:30 hours:- “Winds - Calm, Visibility - 6km, Cloud - Few 2000 ft, Temperature - 27o, Dew Point - 26, QNH - 1006 hPa” At 06:04:19 hours IST when the aircraft was given landing clearance for R/W 24 by ATC, Mangalore, the winds were reported to be calm.
No significant weather had been either forecasted or reported en-route from Dubai to Mangalore. The visibility at Mangalore was 6 km at the time of accident. As such the prevailing weather conditions did not contribute towards the accident.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: usa
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aterpter,
I have just over 24000 hours and flew at united until they decided to steal my money, I finished my career in India, and assume if you have 20000 hours we are of similar age. I am amazed by your arrogance and attitude. You had a lot of luck which helped you finish your career without bending any metal. Remember no weather radars, no microburst detection, no deicing programs, just to name a few. I lost a few good friends who were not so lucky. Hell I remember when guys could have a drink in the cockpit. You can't tell me you were always fit to fly in your career or you called in fatigued every time you were in that state, fatigue wasn't even addressed when we started flying. You would have been laughed out of the building. You were lucky, just like the rest of us. Nowhere is it ever stated this captain was bad to his fo that flight. You should apologize for that blatant lie. There were no responses other than to the atc inquiry. As stated several times this was a complete breakdown in crm between the captain and fo. No communication to captain about late descent, no recognition by captain of late descent until 3 miles, no response by captain to calls from fo or jet, no recognition by fo of captains state and finally no action to go around until on ground after reverser deployment and long landing. Poor communication from before captain went to sleep, as stated by another poster they should have set a wake up time. All easy to see after spending hours investigating, the crew didn't have that liberty and never do. Funny thing about being a pilot, when you screw up your the first to appreciate the gravity of that mistake and for the most part don't need to be prosecuted. But mr. Perfect keep thinking your stellar career at twa was all your doing and that you were immune to mistakes that could of killed you if things hadn't linked up just a little differently, you will be the only one who believes it. You remind me of an ex pilot who joins the Feds and thinks he can do no wrong, maliciously destroying good pilots careers because of his god complex.
I have just over 24000 hours and flew at united until they decided to steal my money, I finished my career in India, and assume if you have 20000 hours we are of similar age. I am amazed by your arrogance and attitude. You had a lot of luck which helped you finish your career without bending any metal. Remember no weather radars, no microburst detection, no deicing programs, just to name a few. I lost a few good friends who were not so lucky. Hell I remember when guys could have a drink in the cockpit. You can't tell me you were always fit to fly in your career or you called in fatigued every time you were in that state, fatigue wasn't even addressed when we started flying. You would have been laughed out of the building. You were lucky, just like the rest of us. Nowhere is it ever stated this captain was bad to his fo that flight. You should apologize for that blatant lie. There were no responses other than to the atc inquiry. As stated several times this was a complete breakdown in crm between the captain and fo. No communication to captain about late descent, no recognition by captain of late descent until 3 miles, no response by captain to calls from fo or jet, no recognition by fo of captains state and finally no action to go around until on ground after reverser deployment and long landing. Poor communication from before captain went to sleep, as stated by another poster they should have set a wake up time. All easy to see after spending hours investigating, the crew didn't have that liberty and never do. Funny thing about being a pilot, when you screw up your the first to appreciate the gravity of that mistake and for the most part don't need to be prosecuted. But mr. Perfect keep thinking your stellar career at twa was all your doing and that you were immune to mistakes that could of killed you if things hadn't linked up just a little differently, you will be the only one who believes it. You remind me of an ex pilot who joins the Feds and thinks he can do no wrong, maliciously destroying good pilots careers because of his god complex.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
drive73:
In addition to your obvious bitterness you really to go off on a a tangent.
Unlike you, I suspect, I participated in several accident investigations. Most, if not all, were the classic chain of events that finally broke and were usually because of lack of knowledge in a particular circumstance coupled with honest mistakes.
That is not the case here nor was it at OPRN. If you fail to see the difference then I must say you were the lucky one that made it out the other end alive.
I have just over 24000 hours and flew at united until they decided to steal my money, I finished my career in India, and assume if you have 20000 hours we are of similar age. I am amazed by your arrogance and attitude. You had a lot of luck which helped you finish your career without bending any metal. Remember no weather radars, no microburst detection, no deicing programs, just to name a few. I lost a few good friends who were not so lucky. Hell I remember when guys could have a drink in the cockpit. You can't tell me you were always fit to fly in your career or you called in fatigued every time you were in that state, fatigue wasn't even addressed when we started flying. You would have been laughed out of the building. You were lucky, just like the rest of us. Nowhere is it ever stated this captain was bad to his fo that flight. You should apologize for that blatant lie. There were no responses other than to the atc inquiry. As stated several times this was a complete breakdown in crm between the captain and fo. No communication to captain about late descent, no recognition by captain of late descent until 3 miles, no response by captain to calls from fo or jet, no recognition by fo of captains state and finally no action to go around until on ground after reverser deployment and long landing. Poor communication from before captain went to sleep, as stated by another poster they should have set a wake up time. All easy to see after spending hours investigating, the crew didn't have that liberty and never do. Funny thing about being a pilot, when you screw up your the first to appreciate the gravity of that mistake and for the most part don't need to be prosecuted. But mr. Perfect keep thinking your stellar career at twa was all your doing and that you were immune to mistakes that could of killed you if things hadn't linked up just a little differently, you will be the only one who believes it. You remind me of an ex pilot who joins the Feds and thinks he can do no wrong, maliciously destroying good pilots careers because of his god complex.
Unlike you, I suspect, I participated in several accident investigations. Most, if not all, were the classic chain of events that finally broke and were usually because of lack of knowledge in a particular circumstance coupled with honest mistakes.
That is not the case here nor was it at OPRN. If you fail to see the difference then I must say you were the lucky one that made it out the other end alive.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aterpster,
I don't know if you try to be so abrasive as part of your internet "persona", or if you really are so bitter & blinkered, I hope, for you too, it is the former.
In the 1st instance,I have to agree wholeheartedly that this approach was so royally screwed up, that I cannot fathom anyone with experience somehow thinking they could get away with it.
On the other hand, I find it difficult to believe that the PIC truly wished to end his life, in a smouldering heap, off the end of a runway in the god forsaken hole that he was forced to seek work.
Do you see where I am coming from ?
We must assume therefore that he was either such a "devil may care" risk taker that he decided , "what the hell, lets go for it" . . OR, he didn't, at that moment in time, appreciate how much sh1t he had dropped himself in.
In a former life I flew in a company with a fair few Serbs. Yes, they were known to push the boat out a bit further than some other nationalities, perhaps an inevitable consequence of living in a country ravaged by civil war, but, they were generally competent switched -on guys who would normally know when to REALLY call it a day.
I have flown approaches after spending a very long night flying UK/Europe to the Canaries/Cyprus & back, where I was physically falling asleep on final, I was that feckin tired ! ! Sometimes, this woke me with such a bloody start that I landed, feeling Tom Cruise like, convinced I could probably loop the space shuttle if needed. On other occasions, it took all my physical & mental strength to somehow figure out how to gracelessly flare/plonk it down, & subsequently taxy half way round the world (in particular CDG) without falling asleep at the wheel. On the odd occasion I have messed it up (or had it messed up for me by ATC) the Tom Cruise mode has usually kicked in . . . . . what if it hadn't ? & what if, on that day, the guy sitting next to me had been more worried about cultural issues/face-saving or whatever than saying "Hey mate, you are going to kill us all ".
Having spent some time with a Turkish carrier, I have seen situations where RHS would prefer to be killed by LHS than open his mouth ( & believe me it was 1000% easier for him to do so with me, than with Capt Turk! )
The unfortunate Capt in this accident was making his 1st flt following his 2 weeks OFF , after his 6wks ON . . . in
India ! !
How rested was he ? how able was he to be "more" rested than he was? how much sh1t was he maybe taking whilst at home, for his "rest", from "her indoors", who, whilst no doubt grateful for the pay-check , possibly also made her feelings well known about running the family home unaided/unsupported (except financially) for 6 weeks ?
I am sorry to say it, but just bad-mouthing somebody who royally screwed up an approach, without acknowledging that there are 1001 factors (visible & invisible) which have contributed to that mental abberation , is both heartless & very closed-minded.
You keep trumpeting your accident investigation skills. . . as far as I can see from this report, at least the remit /scope of this investigation (even in a country like India) appears to have moved on a tad with respect to your , frankly blinkered, viewpoint.
YES YES YES, PIC cocked up so horribly badly that we cannot imagine how. . . it is however, much more important/relevant to try & figure out why, lest we are not the next, in preference to merely bad-mouthing a fellow pilot, whom , I have no doubt, wished to get to the end of the next 6 weeks, & then go back to his family/civilisation.
Sorry Sir, but you are a heartless blinkered individual . . . . nonetheless, I am happy that you have made it to retirement, as others have said though, maybe you should give thanks occassionaly to lady luck, rather than retreating so far up your own sphincter that you think it was ALL down to you.
I don't know if you try to be so abrasive as part of your internet "persona", or if you really are so bitter & blinkered, I hope, for you too, it is the former.
In the 1st instance,I have to agree wholeheartedly that this approach was so royally screwed up, that I cannot fathom anyone with experience somehow thinking they could get away with it.
On the other hand, I find it difficult to believe that the PIC truly wished to end his life, in a smouldering heap, off the end of a runway in the god forsaken hole that he was forced to seek work.
Do you see where I am coming from ?
We must assume therefore that he was either such a "devil may care" risk taker that he decided , "what the hell, lets go for it" . . OR, he didn't, at that moment in time, appreciate how much sh1t he had dropped himself in.
In a former life I flew in a company with a fair few Serbs. Yes, they were known to push the boat out a bit further than some other nationalities, perhaps an inevitable consequence of living in a country ravaged by civil war, but, they were generally competent switched -on guys who would normally know when to REALLY call it a day.
I have flown approaches after spending a very long night flying UK/Europe to the Canaries/Cyprus & back, where I was physically falling asleep on final, I was that feckin tired ! ! Sometimes, this woke me with such a bloody start that I landed, feeling Tom Cruise like, convinced I could probably loop the space shuttle if needed. On other occasions, it took all my physical & mental strength to somehow figure out how to gracelessly flare/plonk it down, & subsequently taxy half way round the world (in particular CDG) without falling asleep at the wheel. On the odd occasion I have messed it up (or had it messed up for me by ATC) the Tom Cruise mode has usually kicked in . . . . . what if it hadn't ? & what if, on that day, the guy sitting next to me had been more worried about cultural issues/face-saving or whatever than saying "Hey mate, you are going to kill us all ".
Having spent some time with a Turkish carrier, I have seen situations where RHS would prefer to be killed by LHS than open his mouth ( & believe me it was 1000% easier for him to do so with me, than with Capt Turk! )
The unfortunate Capt in this accident was making his 1st flt following his 2 weeks OFF , after his 6wks ON . . . in
India ! !How rested was he ? how able was he to be "more" rested than he was? how much sh1t was he maybe taking whilst at home, for his "rest", from "her indoors", who, whilst no doubt grateful for the pay-check , possibly also made her feelings well known about running the family home unaided/unsupported (except financially) for 6 weeks ?
I am sorry to say it, but just bad-mouthing somebody who royally screwed up an approach, without acknowledging that there are 1001 factors (visible & invisible) which have contributed to that mental abberation , is both heartless & very closed-minded.
You keep trumpeting your accident investigation skills. . . as far as I can see from this report, at least the remit /scope of this investigation (even in a country like India) appears to have moved on a tad with respect to your , frankly blinkered, viewpoint.
YES YES YES, PIC cocked up so horribly badly that we cannot imagine how. . . it is however, much more important/relevant to try & figure out why, lest we are not the next, in preference to merely bad-mouthing a fellow pilot, whom , I have no doubt, wished to get to the end of the next 6 weeks, & then go back to his family/civilisation.
Sorry Sir, but you are a heartless blinkered individual . . . . nonetheless, I am happy that you have made it to retirement, as others have said though, maybe you should give thanks occassionaly to lady luck, rather than retreating so far up your own sphincter that you think it was ALL down to you.
Last edited by captplaystation; 23rd Feb 2012 at 21:10.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: usa
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At,
I defiantly am not bitter, other than having a large amount of money stolen, but I suspect most people would be. I had a great career and have no regrets. I do however understand that luck plays a large roll in an uneventful career, especially in aviation and certainly back before good work rules and equipment.
You however seem to think your career success, if true is due to your own godly skills. If you investigated accidents I am amazed you made up the captain was autocratic and uncaring of his fo's concerns. The fact you seem to miss, mr investigator, is why this captain was so fixated on this approach he never responded to his fo or the calls from the jet or why he didn't recognize he was on the false slope for so long or even why he didn't recognize the descent wasn't initiated until much to late. Why with his experience he tried a go around after reverser deployment. As an instructor for many years those are the things I as an investigator would want to find out. Why did a captain with no history of unstable approaches do this? The answer is far more important than assigning blame, which is what you choose to do. We all know the Crew screwed up, it's why that is important. Investigating cause of an accident is only a part of correcting a problem, determining why the cause happened is another part and correcting it is the final part. Your much to happy to make up a story about a drunk on power captain who ignored and ridiculed his fo as the cause. To you it is the simple answer easy and easy to correct, but there is much more going on here than that. As an investigator you should know this by reading the report, even I as a pilot can see human factors were a big factor in this accident.
I defiantly am not bitter, other than having a large amount of money stolen, but I suspect most people would be. I had a great career and have no regrets. I do however understand that luck plays a large roll in an uneventful career, especially in aviation and certainly back before good work rules and equipment.
You however seem to think your career success, if true is due to your own godly skills. If you investigated accidents I am amazed you made up the captain was autocratic and uncaring of his fo's concerns. The fact you seem to miss, mr investigator, is why this captain was so fixated on this approach he never responded to his fo or the calls from the jet or why he didn't recognize he was on the false slope for so long or even why he didn't recognize the descent wasn't initiated until much to late. Why with his experience he tried a go around after reverser deployment. As an instructor for many years those are the things I as an investigator would want to find out. Why did a captain with no history of unstable approaches do this? The answer is far more important than assigning blame, which is what you choose to do. We all know the Crew screwed up, it's why that is important. Investigating cause of an accident is only a part of correcting a problem, determining why the cause happened is another part and correcting it is the final part. Your much to happy to make up a story about a drunk on power captain who ignored and ridiculed his fo as the cause. To you it is the simple answer easy and easy to correct, but there is much more going on here than that. As an investigator you should know this by reading the report, even I as a pilot can see human factors were a big factor in this accident.
Last edited by drive73; 26th Feb 2012 at 02:57.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
captplaystation:
I have never suggested he willfully murdered all aboard. What I did suggest is criminal negligence. There is a legal distinction there. I said the same about the Air Blue captain.
This captain was flying an advanced airplane on a nice day that is capable of flying the DME ARC onto the ILS quite easy. But, not only did he screw that up (rather than using the boards sooner or perhaps a 360 prior to entering the DME ARC) he was operating into a familiar, company-imposed "special quals" airport where being on speed and touching down in the company-designated TDZ was crucial. I don't consider a guy like this a fellow pilot.
Again, I feel sorry for the cultural environment that kept a competent F/O from taking over when they are still aloft well beyond the TDZ. That cultural environment was exacerbated by a berating captain.
Sure there are human-factors; there are always human-factors in every incident or accident. But, human-factors does not equate to a "get out of jail free card."
If I am considered abbrasive becuase of my profound comptempt for this captain, then color me abbrasive.
aterpster,
I don't know if you try to be so abrasive as part of your internet "persona", or if you really are so bitter & blinkered, I hope, for you too, it is the former.
In the 1st instance,I have to agree wholeheartedly that this approach was so royally screwed up, that I cannot fathom anyone with experience somehow thinking they could get away with it.
On the other hand, I find it difficult to believe that the PIC truly wished to end his life, in a smouldering heap, off the end of a runway in the god forsaken hole that he was forced to seek work.
I don't know if you try to be so abrasive as part of your internet "persona", or if you really are so bitter & blinkered, I hope, for you too, it is the former.
In the 1st instance,I have to agree wholeheartedly that this approach was so royally screwed up, that I cannot fathom anyone with experience somehow thinking they could get away with it.
On the other hand, I find it difficult to believe that the PIC truly wished to end his life, in a smouldering heap, off the end of a runway in the god forsaken hole that he was forced to seek work.
This captain was flying an advanced airplane on a nice day that is capable of flying the DME ARC onto the ILS quite easy. But, not only did he screw that up (rather than using the boards sooner or perhaps a 360 prior to entering the DME ARC) he was operating into a familiar, company-imposed "special quals" airport where being on speed and touching down in the company-designated TDZ was crucial. I don't consider a guy like this a fellow pilot.
Again, I feel sorry for the cultural environment that kept a competent F/O from taking over when they are still aloft well beyond the TDZ. That cultural environment was exacerbated by a berating captain.
Sure there are human-factors; there are always human-factors in every incident or accident. But, human-factors does not equate to a "get out of jail free card."
If I am considered abbrasive becuase of my profound comptempt for this captain, then color me abbrasive.
Last edited by aterpster; 24th Feb 2012 at 16:41. Reason: correct spelling for "still"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 81
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aterpster,
I too have investigated accidents (as a military aviator) but I have a different take on this captain's performance.
Have you ever considered the possibility that he never actually awakened? If you are tired enough, it is a distinct possibility.
I have personal experience with sleep driving which is a related concept.
I was young and driving a long distance under time pressure. On the second night of the trip in the middle of Kansas, I pulled off into a rest area (From the Interstate highway) for a quick nap. I set the alarm for 20 minutes into the future and laid down across the seats. Next thing I was aware of, I was driving down a two lane road with the oncoming driver flashing his lights. But where was the Interstate?
In the moonlight, there was another parallel strip of concrete off to the side!
To make a long story short, I had pulled out of the parking spot, reversed travel direction in the parking lot, and gone out the parking area Entry ramp! The car had no extra paint on it from the maneuver so it was not a "drive by braille" exercise. All this while asleep.
This was a manual transmission car too!!!
I too have investigated accidents (as a military aviator) but I have a different take on this captain's performance.
Have you ever considered the possibility that he never actually awakened? If you are tired enough, it is a distinct possibility.
I have personal experience with sleep driving which is a related concept.
I was young and driving a long distance under time pressure. On the second night of the trip in the middle of Kansas, I pulled off into a rest area (From the Interstate highway) for a quick nap. I set the alarm for 20 minutes into the future and laid down across the seats. Next thing I was aware of, I was driving down a two lane road with the oncoming driver flashing his lights. But where was the Interstate?
In the moonlight, there was another parallel strip of concrete off to the side!
To make a long story short, I had pulled out of the parking spot, reversed travel direction in the parking lot, and gone out the parking area Entry ramp! The car had no extra paint on it from the maneuver so it was not a "drive by braille" exercise. All this while asleep.
This was a manual transmission car too!!!
Last edited by Machinbird; 25th Feb 2012 at 00:15. Reason: Adding Additional Information
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: ain khalid
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Machinbird: Good point!
There is interesting discussion going on:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...pa-survey.html
“The MPs heard that 43% of pilots said they had fallen asleep in the cockpit, based on a survey of 500 members of the British Airline Pilots' Association (BAPA).”
I have a good friend and colleague (744 driver for 15 years) who admitted that he fell asleep many times, the funniest one: during flare! He was lucky that F/O pulled the control column.
I was in similar situation many times also, especially after landing at CDG or Narita 34R.
I only wanted to pull the parking brake in the middle of my taxi route and have a nap.
There is interesting discussion going on:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...pa-survey.html
“The MPs heard that 43% of pilots said they had fallen asleep in the cockpit, based on a survey of 500 members of the British Airline Pilots' Association (BAPA).”
I have a good friend and colleague (744 driver for 15 years) who admitted that he fell asleep many times, the funniest one: during flare! He was lucky that F/O pulled the control column.
I was in similar situation many times also, especially after landing at CDG or Narita 34R.
I only wanted to pull the parking brake in the middle of my taxi route and have a nap.
Machinbird, an interesting theory (#529). Is there any science which support this, or with such science, anything which links it with the events of this accident.
I can relate to similar symptoms but in the sense of ‘automatic’ skillful behavior – activities without conscious awareness.
We conduct many tasks at the subconscious level, but not normally with the conscious mind being ‘unconscious’, i.e. asleep.
Distraction or lack of attention – wandering mind, or even complacency can contribute to these types of situation, but generally if a non-normal situation is encountered we expect people to ‘wake-up’ – become aware of the situation.
In flight operations, procedures and check-calls provide opportunity (even for subconscious behavior) to realize that the normal – ‘on the rails’ – type of operation is not progressing according to the ‘skilled’ plan; something jerks you back to reality.
In this accident, this type of input was either not present (poor SOPs, calls, etc) or not effective (FO did make some calls), the latter may represent a failure to hear, which is often associated with being maxed-out with some other task – attention deficiency.
If the Captain was asleep (unconscious) we might expect that crew calls or other actions would wake him, but if the conscious process was maxed out or ‘stalled’ by some other process (inappropriate task, task overload), then the apparent state of normality might remain.
Unfortunately we cannot tell in this accident, but perhaps this line of speculative thought will act as a reminder for the need for well-considered procedures (stabilized approach) and check points (approach gates), with crew intervention, as a possible defense against this type of behaviour.
I can relate to similar symptoms but in the sense of ‘automatic’ skillful behavior – activities without conscious awareness.
We conduct many tasks at the subconscious level, but not normally with the conscious mind being ‘unconscious’, i.e. asleep.
Distraction or lack of attention – wandering mind, or even complacency can contribute to these types of situation, but generally if a non-normal situation is encountered we expect people to ‘wake-up’ – become aware of the situation.
In flight operations, procedures and check-calls provide opportunity (even for subconscious behavior) to realize that the normal – ‘on the rails’ – type of operation is not progressing according to the ‘skilled’ plan; something jerks you back to reality.
In this accident, this type of input was either not present (poor SOPs, calls, etc) or not effective (FO did make some calls), the latter may represent a failure to hear, which is often associated with being maxed-out with some other task – attention deficiency.
If the Captain was asleep (unconscious) we might expect that crew calls or other actions would wake him, but if the conscious process was maxed out or ‘stalled’ by some other process (inappropriate task, task overload), then the apparent state of normality might remain.
Unfortunately we cannot tell in this accident, but perhaps this line of speculative thought will act as a reminder for the need for well-considered procedures (stabilized approach) and check points (approach gates), with crew intervention, as a possible defense against this type of behaviour.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: usa
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At,
You continue to lie about the aex capt. He never berated the fo. This is slander and absolutely false. No way you ever have investigated accidents with your history of making completly false statements. Investigators deal with facts they don't make sh@& up to make themselves look better.
You continue to lie about the aex capt. He never berated the fo. This is slander and absolutely false. No way you ever have investigated accidents with your history of making completly false statements. Investigators deal with facts they don't make sh@& up to make themselves look better.
Last edited by drive73; 26th Feb 2012 at 02:56.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Livesinafield:
First, you have to be a pilot before you can be either a good, fair, or bad pilot. I have no idea about you.
As far as I am concerned you are putting words in my mouth. I never said I was a great pilot. I was a careful pilot, knew my company's procedures, and flew the airplanes they owned in accordance with their directives.
I made my share of mistakes, some of which I caught and some of which my cooperative fellow crewmembers caught.
wow aterpster... i wish i was as good a pilot as you, and completely immune to mistakes...
As far as I am concerned you are putting words in my mouth. I never said I was a great pilot. I was a careful pilot, knew my company's procedures, and flew the airplanes they owned in accordance with their directives.
I made my share of mistakes, some of which I caught and some of which my cooperative fellow crewmembers caught.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Machinbird:
I fail to see the comparison. You were probably dead tired and certainly weren't operating under a structured environment. Stuff like that happens.
OTOH, the subject captain had just come off a rest period and was apparently on-duty for less than 5:00 hours, some 3:15 or so in flight. I don't accept that he suffered from extreme fatigue like you did. I do accept the possibility that he was suffering from what the accident reporters called sleep inertia. If so, that was his own fault. He could have scheduled a reasonable wakeup time with his F/O, but that would have required both cooperation and professionalism. Further, it is doubtful he was so groggy that he didn't hear any of the cautions issued by the F/O, for which he apparently had nothing but contempt.
I have no doubt this guy thought he was "the ace of the base."
Aterpster,
I too have investigated accidents (as a military aviator) but I have a different take on this captain's performance.
Have you ever considered the possibility that he never actually awakened? If you are tired enough, it is a distinct possibility.
I have personal experience with sleep driving which is a related concept.
I was young and driving a long distance under time pressure. On the second night of the trip in the middle of Kansas, I pulled off into a rest area (From the Interstate highway) for a quick nap. I set the alarm for 20 minutes into the future and laid down across the seats. Next thing I was aware of, I was driving down a two lane road with the oncoming driver flashing his lights. But where was the Interstate?
In the moonlight, there was another parallel strip of concrete off to the side!
To make a long story short, I had pulled out of the parking spot, reversed travel direction in the parking lot, and gone out the parking area Entry ramp! The car had no extra paint on it from the maneuver so it was not a "drive by braille" exercise. All this while asleep.
This was a manual transmission car too!!!
I too have investigated accidents (as a military aviator) but I have a different take on this captain's performance.
Have you ever considered the possibility that he never actually awakened? If you are tired enough, it is a distinct possibility.
I have personal experience with sleep driving which is a related concept.
I was young and driving a long distance under time pressure. On the second night of the trip in the middle of Kansas, I pulled off into a rest area (From the Interstate highway) for a quick nap. I set the alarm for 20 minutes into the future and laid down across the seats. Next thing I was aware of, I was driving down a two lane road with the oncoming driver flashing his lights. But where was the Interstate?
In the moonlight, there was another parallel strip of concrete off to the side!
To make a long story short, I had pulled out of the parking spot, reversed travel direction in the parking lot, and gone out the parking area Entry ramp! The car had no extra paint on it from the maneuver so it was not a "drive by braille" exercise. All this while asleep.
This was a manual transmission car too!!!
OTOH, the subject captain had just come off a rest period and was apparently on-duty for less than 5:00 hours, some 3:15 or so in flight. I don't accept that he suffered from extreme fatigue like you did. I do accept the possibility that he was suffering from what the accident reporters called sleep inertia. If so, that was his own fault. He could have scheduled a reasonable wakeup time with his F/O, but that would have required both cooperation and professionalism. Further, it is doubtful he was so groggy that he didn't hear any of the cautions issued by the F/O, for which he apparently had nothing but contempt.
I have no doubt this guy thought he was "the ace of the base."
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The real human-factors issue that needs to be taken apart bit by bit is the inaction of this apparently competent F/O as well as his apparently competent fellow F/O at Islamabad.
Both of them should have seized control of their respective airplanes before it was too late. But, apparently both of them were so brow-beaten they entered a state of disbelief about what the old man was (or was not) doing.
That is truly the sad aspect of both accidents.
Both of them should have seized control of their respective airplanes before it was too late. But, apparently both of them were so brow-beaten they entered a state of disbelief about what the old man was (or was not) doing.
That is truly the sad aspect of both accidents.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aterpster - "I have no doubt this guy thought he was "the ace of the base." "
It's comment's like these that completely undermine your posting. Why don't you try explaining how you came to that conclusion?
It's comment's like these that completely undermine your posting. Why don't you try explaining how you came to that conclusion?
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: usa
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At, you continue to completly lie! Where does it state in the crash report these two pilots had conflict. Where is cvr data that backs up your berating captain claim. I believe you were one of his fo's and must of had a conflict with him. You continue to slander without evidence. Your credibility is completly ruined, I believe nothing you say.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cornwall-on-Hudson, New York
Posts: 875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe you were one of his fo's and must of had a conflict with him.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 81
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by safetypee
Machinbird, an interesting theory (#529). Is there any science which support this, or with such science, anything which links it with the events of this accident.
parasomnia /para·som·nia/ (-som´ne-ah) a category of sleep disorders in which abnormal events occur during sleep, such as sleepwalking or talking; due to inappropriately timed activation of physiological systems.
The best briefing on the subject I found was here:Parasomnia (Insomnia & Sleep Disorders) (Wait for the advertisement to run its course.)
From what I have learned, it would not be at all surprising to find unconscious skilled behavior in a parasomnia event. If sleeping women can cook a meal and eat it without actually waking, I pilot should be able to make a semblance of an approach and landing while unconscious.
I have not yet gone through the accident report with a fine tooth comb looking for evidence of parasomnia, but in a brief read earlier, the Captain was not interacting much after he was 'awakened'. If parasomnia was involved, it is all the more reason for a PM not being bashful about taking charge when he sees the Fit about to hit the Shan.
OK465, I spent a few months at Miramar, but was mostly an East Coast flyer.