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Old 19th May 2017, 18:36   #1701 (permalink)
 
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(Posted in error)
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:27   #1702 (permalink)
Before "Ze Germans" get here
 
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FWIW:

Reconstruction shows R116 crew almost avoided disaster - Independent.ie
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Old 22nd May 2017, 20:37   #1703 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepys View Post
Gouli,
at 200ft you know you are below msa!


No you don't know if your (electronic) maps don't show any obstacles higher than 30ft. In hindsight obviously we know better.
It is sad to see how a combination of inexact information and certain logic in the equipment that by itself would not cause a big risk/problem (280ft high obstacle in open sea not shown in EGPWS database, not or only partly shown in moving map, depending on mode, EGPWS inhibition in low altitude mode, deactivated clutter suppression, in exactly this combination lining up for a perfect disaster) still makes such a scenario possible even in such a modern machine. Very enlightening regarding unwanted consequences of features.


Why they cruised at 200ft for such an extended period of time will probably remain a mystery, though.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 20:41   #1704 (permalink)
 
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Has anybody on this thread got any information as to how the search for the two missing crew is going.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 21:25   #1705 (permalink)
 
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Henry,

I don't know what rules you work to but I have always known msa to be 1000 ft about highest object. At 200 ft you are therefore obviously below msa regardless of what your paper or electronic map says.

Offshore MSA is 1000ft or 1500ft in areas of wind turbines.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 22:06   #1706 (permalink)
 
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Why they cruised at 200ft for such an extended period of time will probably remain a mystery, though.
No mystery. If the cloud base was around 300'.
One scenario is that they "let down" over the ocean. Got clear of cloud. Then followed a route (clear of cloud, but in the dark?) at a height they thought they were safe at.

Any mystery in my mind is why they thought the route was safe at 200'.
The tragedy in my mind is all the safety back stops not working, especially EGWPS.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 22:18   #1707 (permalink)
 
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I may have missed it in the previous pages but has there been any info on the vertical path of this procedure?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 07:39   #1708 (permalink)
 
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Jeepys - We are talking SAR here and there are different rules for them that take into account their mission, the training and the equipment on board. Read the previous posts and you will get the picture.

G
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Old 23rd May 2017, 08:19   #1709 (permalink)
 
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"Dive and drive" is the term you may be looking for.

It has its uses but........................
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Old 23rd May 2017, 09:25   #1710 (permalink)
 
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Geoffrey,

Well aware of that but I thought they were following a company let down route?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 11:32   #1711 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by jeepys View Post
Geoffrey,

Well aware of that but I thought they were following a company let down route?
Jeepsys - this has all been discussed in depth in previous pages if you care to look. It just needs a bit of effort but to help you - the AAIU Preliminary Report on this accident is referenced in post 840 on page 42 of this thread. On page 17 of the report, para 3.5.8, the Operator's Route Guide is displayed. Read the report and this thread from thereon in and your queries will be answered.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 11:39   #1712 (permalink)
 
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Democritus,
Seen that thanks but where is page two of the route guide giving other info?
Is there info on that page that gives advisory heights etc?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 12:34   #1713 (permalink)
 
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For the jeep seats:
As stated further up this page. They "let down" over the sea. A common, and safe practice.
They were using a company VFR route guide. To get to the refueling destination.
Not a "let down route". No vertical guidance. Spot heights were included on the second page.

This is only my understanding from reading the report, with both eyes open, some experience, and a healthy interest.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 12:46   #1714 (permalink)
 
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Yes so the second page is pretty important for any height/vertical guidance or spot heights
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Old 23rd May 2017, 18:02   #1715 (permalink)
 
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Why fly around with the gear down over the sea,with at least 10+ miles to land...?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 18:47   #1716 (permalink)
 
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Why fly around with the gear down over the sea,with at least 10+ miles to land...?
Nice to get the 'before landing checks' done before decending so low in bad weather, also depending on what was going on in their mental model they may have been planning on coming in slower and lower, so prevents the landing gear warning
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