AAIB January 2017
Helicomparator - you are still ranting and railing at comments that simply are not there. I know you have an entrenched position on ex-mil pilots but for goodness sake stop bashing us over the head with your own prejudices.
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HC, did you not read my post in full?
I was merely making the point that the main problem is that pilots fresh out of a civilian flying school aren't very closely mentored once they gain their PPL. I've been there myself - my initial flying training was done at a civilian flying school (prior to my military training) and in total I've flown as a civilian pilot for longer than I flew in the military.
All inexperienced pilots can benefit from a mentor, regardless of ability and training.
Unless perhaps they obviously have a flawless natural ability such as your own, where no-one with any military experience need try to teach them anything.
I've seen both systems, you obviously have not and you seem to have a permanent shoulder chip caption on. Most of your posts on this website consist of acrimony towards other professionals. It should be a discussion about flight safety, not acrimonious point scoring because of background, or what you think it might be.
I was merely making the point that the main problem is that pilots fresh out of a civilian flying school aren't very closely mentored once they gain their PPL. I've been there myself - my initial flying training was done at a civilian flying school (prior to my military training) and in total I've flown as a civilian pilot for longer than I flew in the military.
All inexperienced pilots can benefit from a mentor, regardless of ability and training.
Unless perhaps they obviously have a flawless natural ability such as your own, where no-one with any military experience need try to teach them anything.
I've seen both systems, you obviously have not and you seem to have a permanent shoulder chip caption on. Most of your posts on this website consist of acrimony towards other professionals. It should be a discussion about flight safety, not acrimonious point scoring because of background, or what you think it might be.
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this post is an attempt to get back on topic from all the ranting !
from Mr Torque,
This is certainly the truest true fact that explains some of the nonsense that goes on post PPL
Also several people have picked up on that they fit the profile of those in the 40's of the business man variety, I really think I am on to something here.
Early in the PPL course they are generally respectful of the fact that they know nothing and their instructor knows something, but a certain percentage of the students at a certain point start to try to treat the instructor like one of their employees and in the hands of an experienced instructor they can be easily controlled, but the younger and less experienced FI(R) can get streamrollered by them if they are not careful and the student starts to run the flight,
This is my experience, and it just leads to greater problems post PPL
from Mr Torque,
However, main problem with the PPL system is that there is no mentoring post qualification.
Also several people have picked up on that they fit the profile of those in the 40's of the business man variety, I really think I am on to something here.
Early in the PPL course they are generally respectful of the fact that they know nothing and their instructor knows something, but a certain percentage of the students at a certain point start to try to treat the instructor like one of their employees and in the hands of an experienced instructor they can be easily controlled, but the younger and less experienced FI(R) can get streamrollered by them if they are not careful and the student starts to run the flight,
This is my experience, and it just leads to greater problems post PPL
Last edited by Camp Freddie; 20th Jan 2017 at 12:54.
HC, did you not read my post in full?
I was merely making the point that the main problem is that pilots fresh out of a civilian flying school aren't very closely mentored once they gain their PPL. I've been there myself - my initial flying training was done at a civilian flying school (prior to my military training) and in total I've flown as a civilian pilot for longer than I flew in the military.
All inexperienced pilots can benefit from a mentor, regardless of ability and training.
I was merely making the point that the main problem is that pilots fresh out of a civilian flying school aren't very closely mentored once they gain their PPL. I've been there myself - my initial flying training was done at a civilian flying school (prior to my military training) and in total I've flown as a civilian pilot for longer than I flew in the military.
All inexperienced pilots can benefit from a mentor, regardless of ability and training.
But no matter, as a reaction to an R44 flopping in and not seriously injuring anyone, it is clearly a megalomaniacal over-reaction and it ain't going to happen, so why witter on about it?
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Helicomparator - you are still ranting and railing at comments that simply are not there. I know you have an entrenched position on ex-mil pilots but for goodness sake stop bashing us over the head with your own prejudices.
Much as we only notice those with a massive chip on their shoulder about not being ex-mil, how much better they are because they worked on the N Sea, and how no-one could learn from ex-mil (arrogant) pilots - because they keep banging on about it on these pages.
Post-PPLH mentoring is a good idea and most of those without egos on here recognise it - it doesn't have to restrict their freedoms or cost a fortune, but it is a good idea and those that want to learn and improve will - those that don't won't but they will probably be in a minority.
Post-PPLH mentoring is a good idea and most of those without egos on here recognise it - it doesn't have to restrict their freedoms or cost a fortune, but it is a good idea and those that want to learn and improve will - those that don't won't but they will probably be in a minority.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Much as we only notice those with a massive chip on their shoulder about not being ex-mil, how much better they are because they worked on the N Sea, and how no-one could learn from ex-mil (arrogant) pilots - because they keep banging on about it on these pages.
Post-PPLH mentoring is a good idea and most of those without egos on here recognise it - it doesn't have to restrict their freedoms or cost a fortune, but it is a good idea and those that want to learn and improve will - those that don't won't but they will probably be in a minority.
Post-PPLH mentoring is a good idea and most of those without egos on here recognise it - it doesn't have to restrict their freedoms or cost a fortune, but it is a good idea and those that want to learn and improve will - those that don't won't but they will probably be in a minority.
So my point is not that mentoring is ineffective, it is that it is unfeasible to enforce it for PPLs. The whole point of having a licence is that you can operate independently! Of course it is the usual story of those who don't really need to will seek advice and good counsel anyway, those who really do need it are too arrogant to realise and so won't.
So far folk seem to have decided that in order to avoid a pilot flopping his R44 into a field we must eliminate young instructors - even though we have no idea who this chap's instructor(s) was/were. And that he is an arrogant fool who wouldn't have crashed if only he had been forced to have some mentoring.
In these days of evidence-based regulatory actions, that is nothing short of barking.
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HC, I never wrote about demanding mandatory training post PPL. By claiming that I do, you've just invented it as another way of venting your spleen against others of a different background to yourself (i.e. military), as seems to be your usual thing. As I did say, you really can't comment on military training or supervision because by your own admission you don't have any experience of it.
I also know that some very sensible newly qualified PPL helicopter pilots do regularly ask for an instructor to fly along with them and pay them to do so (and which will please you, not necessarily an ex-military one). Good on them. But it's an unfortunate fact that at the other end of the scale some low houred, fresh out of the box extrovert PPL "know it-alls" know so little they don't even realise they are about to do something that is likely to result in an accident and there is no supervisory chain to stop them. Which is where this thread began. The evidence is on the accident report above and in a depressingly high number of others in the past.
I also know that some very sensible newly qualified PPL helicopter pilots do regularly ask for an instructor to fly along with them and pay them to do so (and which will please you, not necessarily an ex-military one). Good on them. But it's an unfortunate fact that at the other end of the scale some low houred, fresh out of the box extrovert PPL "know it-alls" know so little they don't even realise they are about to do something that is likely to result in an accident and there is no supervisory chain to stop them. Which is where this thread began. The evidence is on the accident report above and in a depressingly high number of others in the past.
ST no you didn't state it outright but that seemed the implication. But of course you couldn't resist the "when I was in the military we did it so much better..." kind of comment.
I don't disagree with your last para but I do think it is pie in the sky to expect some sort of mandatory supervision / mentoring for PPLs. Perhaps our disagreement is just because I am a realist, and also because I accept that leisure aviation will have a higher proportion of crashery than commercial or military aviation. Whereas you see a problem and want it fixed regardless of the practicalities or loss of freedoms. Perhaps a move to a police state where private aviation is not allowed would suit you?
I don't disagree with your last para but I do think it is pie in the sky to expect some sort of mandatory supervision / mentoring for PPLs. Perhaps our disagreement is just because I am a realist, and also because I accept that leisure aviation will have a higher proportion of crashery than commercial or military aviation. Whereas you see a problem and want it fixed regardless of the practicalities or loss of freedoms. Perhaps a move to a police state where private aviation is not allowed would suit you?
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Whereas you see a problem and want it fixed regardless of the practicalities or loss of freedoms. Perhaps a move to a police state where private aviation is not allowed would suit you?
So far folk seem to have decided that in order to avoid a pilot flopping his R44 into a field we must eliminate young instructors - even though we have no idea who this chap's instructor(s) was/were. And that he is an arrogant fool who wouldn't have crashed if only he had been forced to have some mentoring.
Any mention of the military system has been to highlight how we are protected from ourselves (for the most part) and prevented from doing the enemy's job for him by being constantly educated and reminded of the pitfalls and mistakes made by others.
We know we are fortunate to have had that progression, tuition, development and protection - is it arrogant to suggest something similar might benefit those starting out in the private flying game?
Being a member of a club is a great way to reap the benefits of others experience - a chat over a beer with an old sweat might just save an embarrassing incident, accident, write-off or even loss of life. The days of sitting around the crewroom chewing the fat, learning from the stories of others - peers as well as the older/more experienced were many of the most valuable for many of us in the military - sadly that sort of environment doesn't exist widely in GA.
You are rather polarised in your position - you seem to believe that if we try to improve anything, it automatically equates to loss of freedom or massive increase in cost which will deny aviation to the masses; this is more sad than realistic since you would rather do nothing and let people kill themselves and others for the want of a little education.
It's not just the 'flopping' of an R44 into a field - that is just the latest in a litany of very preventable accidents (many with fatalities) caused simply by the lack of airmanship.
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I have watched this thread with some amusement. As ever the ex-military folk are full of how much better the military system is.
Well hardly surprising, no real consideration of cost, nearly unlimited time, a hierarchical control system where junior ranks can only operate with permission, no real need to get things done in the minimum time possibe Whilst some people might volunteer to join this arrangement mere ppls obviously would not, commercial training has always taken advantage of the experience levels that military pilots have picked up at notionally no expense to the operator - when they have to pay for less than 500hrs is plenty!
Mentoring - yes can be very effective and most of the ppls I know do some. The people who probably need it most are however perhaps lest likely to seek it out. The answer for most here seems to be they would not be allowed in the military so they should not have a licence!
JAA tried to address this point, compulsory flight with an instructor every two years - the result? No improvement in accident rates!
Certainly a supportive club or group environment can help, but my local gliding club has had a couple of stupid accidents where all that support has not heped and reslted in broken aircraft and people.
Like HC I have tired of the military is best argument - without the people making it understanding they have been in an environment almost totally protected from the real world. Practical training is cost and time constrained, it aims to achieve a level of competence where people will survive and learn whilst the pay to build experience.
The training syllabus is stuffed full of rubbish, coming from the point of view that culling out some people without the necessary intelligence and memory is its purpose. Does it achieve that? No, it simply clouds the issues and makes people swop up the answers rather than the reasons. EASA has simply continued that process, courtesy of may of the ex-military types that fill regulatory positions.
Well hardly surprising, no real consideration of cost, nearly unlimited time, a hierarchical control system where junior ranks can only operate with permission, no real need to get things done in the minimum time possibe Whilst some people might volunteer to join this arrangement mere ppls obviously would not, commercial training has always taken advantage of the experience levels that military pilots have picked up at notionally no expense to the operator - when they have to pay for less than 500hrs is plenty!
Mentoring - yes can be very effective and most of the ppls I know do some. The people who probably need it most are however perhaps lest likely to seek it out. The answer for most here seems to be they would not be allowed in the military so they should not have a licence!
JAA tried to address this point, compulsory flight with an instructor every two years - the result? No improvement in accident rates!
Certainly a supportive club or group environment can help, but my local gliding club has had a couple of stupid accidents where all that support has not heped and reslted in broken aircraft and people.
Like HC I have tired of the military is best argument - without the people making it understanding they have been in an environment almost totally protected from the real world. Practical training is cost and time constrained, it aims to achieve a level of competence where people will survive and learn whilst the pay to build experience.
The training syllabus is stuffed full of rubbish, coming from the point of view that culling out some people without the necessary intelligence and memory is its purpose. Does it achieve that? No, it simply clouds the issues and makes people swop up the answers rather than the reasons. EASA has simply continued that process, courtesy of may of the ex-military types that fill regulatory positions.
I am afraid to say this thread is getting very sad. The more responsible of us try and make the system better and point out its weakness, yes HC i have a very bad name at The CAA for trying to do so, to make people safer. Quite frankly with your attitude I really don't know why I should bother, let the new generation kill themselves.
Here is an example for you i would welcome your professional comments on. Last week doing some training with a PPLH, not one of mine, I stuck the pedals in a cruise position just before the start of a descent from 800 ft to land. Student realised at 500 ft, asked me to take feet of pedals I refused saying no they are stuck, what are you going to be about it. Reply I do not know. I again asked what we were going to do at 200 ft, again reply I do not know. At 100 ft I asked again what are we going to do, again reply I do not know. My reply I have control.
Here is an example for you i would welcome your professional comments on. Last week doing some training with a PPLH, not one of mine, I stuck the pedals in a cruise position just before the start of a descent from 800 ft to land. Student realised at 500 ft, asked me to take feet of pedals I refused saying no they are stuck, what are you going to be about it. Reply I do not know. I again asked what we were going to do at 200 ft, again reply I do not know. At 100 ft I asked again what are we going to do, again reply I do not know. My reply I have control.
I am afraid to say this thread is getting very sad. The more responsible of us try and make the system better and point out its weakness, yes HC i have a very bad name at The CAA for trying to do so, to make people safer. Quite frankly with your attitude I really don't know why I should bother, let the new generation kill themselves.
Here is an example for you i would welcome your professional comments on. Last week doing some training with a PPLH, not one of mine, I stuck the pedals in a cruise position just before the start of a descent from 800 ft to land. Student realised at 500 ft, asked me to take feet of pedals I refused saying no they are stuck, what are you going to be about it. Reply I do not know. I again asked what we were going to do at 200 ft, again reply I do not know. At 100 ft I asked again what are we going to do, again reply I do not know. My reply I have control.
Here is an example for you i would welcome your professional comments on. Last week doing some training with a PPLH, not one of mine, I stuck the pedals in a cruise position just before the start of a descent from 800 ft to land. Student realised at 500 ft, asked me to take feet of pedals I refused saying no they are stuck, what are you going to be about it. Reply I do not know. I again asked what we were going to do at 200 ft, again reply I do not know. At 100 ft I asked again what are we going to do, again reply I do not know. My reply I have control.
But it's interesting that you want to make a big deal out of that particular thing. I think it is a fairly pointless excercise since just how often does yaw control get stuck at the pedals? It is a completely different kettle of fish to yaw control getting stuck at the tail rotor. I know a great many pilots with 10,000 hrs or more each, none of them have ever had such an event. So just how important is it? By which I mean, if that PPL has an accident it won't be due to that circumstance but it will be due to some event not covered by trite and repetitive excercises.
When it does happen it is most likely due to some obstruction of the pedals by an object dropped by the occupants, or of course even more likely as a result of the passenger plonking his feet on the pedals. So your PPL was absolutely correct in recognising the problem and telling you to get your feet off the pedals. He had obviously visually checked for obstructions which was the right thing to do, and on seeing the problem he dealt with it correctly within his limited authority as P2. I wonder if you praised him for that or merely ridiculed him for not ignoring the obvious problem and instead carrying out some gung ho running landing thingy just like you were taught by an equally mindless instructor.
Well I'll give you that it is a slightly useful excercise in that it reinforces the concept of yaw with power, but it is just a game and some people find it hard to take role playing games seriously. Doesn't mean they are a bad pilot, just a bad actor.
In summary stuck yaw pedals isn't a common or even infrequent cause of accidents. So could you explain why you were wasting time on it, rather than concentrating on the sort of issue that is much, much more likely to be the cause of this guy's first accident? Seems you are part of the problem.
Well HC and Alpha time for me to give up then, hope I never get to fly with either of you as quite frankly your views send a shudder down my spine. I can only take from your views that we don't teach anything to do with what if scenarios or anything to do with safety.
As I am obviously crap at my job could you please tell me what you would like me to teach when it comes to emergencies ? I have left my brain behind ?
As I am obviously crap at my job could you please tell me what you would like me to teach when it comes to emergencies ? I have left my brain behind ?
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The really funny part of this thread is despite all the money, professionalism, mentoring etc, I can recall quite a few military helicopter accidents where the mistakes made by this R44 pilot have also featured.
As an ex military pilot myself I would say giving the resources, selection process and all the other favourable factors and conditions we enjoyed, when making a comparison with civil PPL training, the respective accidents rates and root causes are disproportionate......and actually favour the Civil sector. And I am not talking about operational military flying. Just training and peacetime.
It's also easy to claim the military flight envelope is more demanding but hitting the ground IS hitting the ground no matter how you manage to get there.
As an ex military pilot myself I would say giving the resources, selection process and all the other favourable factors and conditions we enjoyed, when making a comparison with civil PPL training, the respective accidents rates and root causes are disproportionate......and actually favour the Civil sector. And I am not talking about operational military flying. Just training and peacetime.
It's also easy to claim the military flight envelope is more demanding but hitting the ground IS hitting the ground no matter how you manage to get there.
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Hughes500 I think if you ever had the chance to fly with HC it would be your privilege. He has a wealth of knowledge and a lifetime of experience. You would surely benefit even just a little.
I also was intrigued by your TR fixed pitch story for one clear reason! These excercises are inherently dangerous. Therefore you should NEVER instigate them in flight without a full and proper brief when instructing. The fact your student did not even realise what your were simulating by placing your feet on the pedals stirs my own inner instructor to the point of moral outrage.
Introducing exercises during training, especially flight control malfunctions that require a highly advanced diagnosis and subsequent flight profile, without a ground brief is dangerous and extremely traumatic for the student.
This also applies exactly the same for Flight Tests and Checks. All critical exercises must at least have a safety brief AND can even include guidance and confirmatory instruction to at least ensure safety is served.
H500 I know you will smart a bit and kick back at what I have written, however, if you truly want to take on the CAA or improve the standards of PPL skills generally look carefully at what I have written in conjunction with what HC also states about your students initial reaction. That SHOULD have been a clear indicator to you to say "Oh you are not sure....then let me give you a brief (possibly in flight) followed by some top notch demos (which I am sure you can do), followed by his practise. EXPLANATION, DEMONSTRATION, IMITATION.
Sitting there with your feet jammed on the pedals and letting the poor guy descend to 100 feet having no clue how to resolve the problem would have been horrific for that pilot. In my view you should seriously consider your conduct and the effect it would have had on this student.
I also was intrigued by your TR fixed pitch story for one clear reason! These excercises are inherently dangerous. Therefore you should NEVER instigate them in flight without a full and proper brief when instructing. The fact your student did not even realise what your were simulating by placing your feet on the pedals stirs my own inner instructor to the point of moral outrage.
Introducing exercises during training, especially flight control malfunctions that require a highly advanced diagnosis and subsequent flight profile, without a ground brief is dangerous and extremely traumatic for the student.
This also applies exactly the same for Flight Tests and Checks. All critical exercises must at least have a safety brief AND can even include guidance and confirmatory instruction to at least ensure safety is served.
H500 I know you will smart a bit and kick back at what I have written, however, if you truly want to take on the CAA or improve the standards of PPL skills generally look carefully at what I have written in conjunction with what HC also states about your students initial reaction. That SHOULD have been a clear indicator to you to say "Oh you are not sure....then let me give you a brief (possibly in flight) followed by some top notch demos (which I am sure you can do), followed by his practise. EXPLANATION, DEMONSTRATION, IMITATION.
Sitting there with your feet jammed on the pedals and letting the poor guy descend to 100 feet having no clue how to resolve the problem would have been horrific for that pilot. In my view you should seriously consider your conduct and the effect it would have had on this student.
Apologies for butting in but I think that Hughes500's point is that this wasn't a 'student'. The pilot in question already held a PPL(H) so, technically, he/she should have already covered 'stuck pedals'. If he/she couldn't recall what to do, they should've had a go at problem solving the issue, rather than just blankly saying 'I don't know' repeatedly.
I suspect that Hughes500's point was what would this particular pilot do if they had stuck pedals for real when flying on their own? Just repeatedly say 'I don't know' until they ran out of fuel, or spun in. Or work out what to do in order to get the aircraft back on the ground?
(And yes, unfortunately, mobile phones do often get dropped and then subsequently get caught in pedal controls).
I suspect that Hughes500's point was what would this particular pilot do if they had stuck pedals for real when flying on their own? Just repeatedly say 'I don't know' until they ran out of fuel, or spun in. Or work out what to do in order to get the aircraft back on the ground?
(And yes, unfortunately, mobile phones do often get dropped and then subsequently get caught in pedal controls).
Well HC and Alpha time for me to give up then, hope I never get to fly with either of you as quite frankly your views send a shudder down my spine. I can only take from your views that we don't teach anything to do with what if scenarios or anything to do with safety.
As I am obviously crap at my job could you please tell me what you would like me to teach when it comes to emergencies ? I have left my brain behind ?
As I am obviously crap at my job could you please tell me what you would like me to teach when it comes to emergencies ? I have left my brain behind ?
And on a related point, you say this was a training flight. A refresher training flight should start in the briefing room where you review what you are going to do, what you expect from the student, covering theory and practice and thus getting a feel for what the PPL knows and maybe doesn't know. Then you go on the TRAINING flight and put it into practice. Just flying along and thinking up some pat emergency drill and then bollocking the guy when he gets it wrong is a testing flight, not a training flight. With the former approach the PPL will hopefully go away having learned something and will respect you for helping him. With the latter he will consider that the aim of the flight was for you to demonstrate how much cleverer you are than he is and he will go away having learnt only that the instructor is an a**e.
Edited to say DB beat me to it and put it so much better!