Sad incident at Palamar today
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SASLESS,
this appeared to be a perfectly serviceable aircraft that was crashed by the pilot. it did not burn either.
i dare say that the same guy would have had the same problem with the 407 that i am flying in the arctic right now, and he would have had to worry about the #2 bearing that apparently has still not been fixed.
regards
fp
this appeared to be a perfectly serviceable aircraft that was crashed by the pilot. it did not burn either.
i dare say that the same guy would have had the same problem with the 407 that i am flying in the arctic right now, and he would have had to worry about the #2 bearing that apparently has still not been fixed.
regards
fp
The fact the Fire Wagon was yards away while the aircraft was spinning about round and round....added greatly to the lack of fire this time.
Check the Stats on the Astar and you will understand from whence I speak about its proclivity to turn itself into ashes following a survivable impact....and far too often killing its occupants in the process.
http://www.aviationlawmonitor.com/articles/helicopters/
http://www.9news.com/story/news/inve...fety/30752301/
Check the Stats on the Astar and you will understand from whence I speak about its proclivity to turn itself into ashes following a survivable impact....and far too often killing its occupants in the process.
http://www.aviationlawmonitor.com/articles/helicopters/
http://www.9news.com/story/news/inve...fety/30752301/
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but this one didn't...
or did the Fire Wagon have to spray it down? i did not see anything in the pictures that looked like foam or retardent at the scene. honestly, just asking...
fp
or did the Fire Wagon have to spray it down? i did not see anything in the pictures that looked like foam or retardent at the scene. honestly, just asking...
fp
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SAS ..... the sniping really does detract from your otherwise valid points about crashworthy fuel tanks
I have worked with Exxon, Chevron - they had stopped cards well ahead of the Europeans .... and their solution for preventing this accident would be simple - you wanna use a dolly, then chock it - and if I catch you not doing that, we'll sack you
I have worked with Exxon, Chevron - they had stopped cards well ahead of the Europeans .... and their solution for preventing this accident would be simple - you wanna use a dolly, then chock it - and if I catch you not doing that, we'll sack you
The News Reports indicate the aircraft did catch fire and it was extinguished by the Crash Fire Crew.
That the aircraft continued to spin around for such a long time is what enabled the Crash Truck to be on scene and able to put out the fire as quickly as it did.
http://fox5sandiego.com/2015/11/18/h...lomar-airport/
http://fox5sandiego.com/2015/11/19/m...sh-identified/
Tis.....Tis not sniping.....just asking if the burden of HSE Rules in the UK and Europe really prevent accidents to the extent the HSE Mob would want you to think.
The Collateral Damage such Rules (when in excess of need) do to competitiveness and efficiency is also a question that is begged.
Despite all the rules and regulations aimed at improving Safety.....we continue to be undone by those very same Rules.....as exemplified by the use of non-crashworthy fuel systems in new build but design aircraft such as the AStar and its plastic fuel tank.
That the aircraft continued to spin around for such a long time is what enabled the Crash Truck to be on scene and able to put out the fire as quickly as it did.
http://fox5sandiego.com/2015/11/18/h...lomar-airport/
http://fox5sandiego.com/2015/11/19/m...sh-identified/
Tis.....Tis not sniping.....just asking if the burden of HSE Rules in the UK and Europe really prevent accidents to the extent the HSE Mob would want you to think.
The Collateral Damage such Rules (when in excess of need) do to competitiveness and efficiency is also a question that is begged.
Despite all the rules and regulations aimed at improving Safety.....we continue to be undone by those very same Rules.....as exemplified by the use of non-crashworthy fuel systems in new build but design aircraft such as the AStar and its plastic fuel tank.
SAS: I have looked again and again at the better video on page one and cannot see any intervention whatsoever from the fire crew. No extinguishant was used after the fuel spewed out towards the end and it then vapourised.
The news report probably refers to the fire tender spraying the cab after it all calmed down and they spotted fuel everywhere.
Why this never fireballed is anyone's guess but I still maintain that someone should have done something before it all ended so tragically (even if it was the pilots fault).
Handy - yes I recall doing landings on dollies in the early days - hairy!
The news report probably refers to the fire tender spraying the cab after it all calmed down and they spotted fuel everywhere.
Why this never fireballed is anyone's guess but I still maintain that someone should have done something before it all ended so tragically (even if it was the pilots fault).
Handy - yes I recall doing landings on dollies in the early days - hairy!
Not sure what relevance UK HSE legislation has to an aircraft crash in the USA or to aircraft build standards??????
Yes, HSE can be a pain in the backside sometimes but usually because some over-zealous jobsworth applies rules without any thought. The legislation has improved safety in many areas but it was designed for industry not aviation.
Yes, HSE can be a pain in the backside sometimes but usually because some over-zealous jobsworth applies rules without any thought. The legislation has improved safety in many areas but it was designed for industry not aviation.
The report quoted the "authorities" as to the Fire Brigade extinguishing a fire.
Until proven otherwise....I will go with that statement as confirming a fire existed at some point and the Crash Crew put it out very quickly as they were in the immediate vicinity of the spinning aircraft waiting for it to come to a rest.
So a question.....why do we still fly around in Astars with plastic Fuel Tanks despite knowing they are patently unsafe in a High Impact Crash and would not be allowed under current Certification Requirements?
Legally we can because of the way Aircraft Type Certificates are treated under Law.
If UK HSE Standards are so effective.....why has EC not been forced to install Crash Worthy Fuel Tanks in new build AStars?
In the USA....it is simple....the FAA ignores the NTSB and the Operators do not want to spend the money except perhaps in the case of Air Methods the nation's largest EMS Operator.
Until proven otherwise....I will go with that statement as confirming a fire existed at some point and the Crash Crew put it out very quickly as they were in the immediate vicinity of the spinning aircraft waiting for it to come to a rest.
So a question.....why do we still fly around in Astars with plastic Fuel Tanks despite knowing they are patently unsafe in a High Impact Crash and would not be allowed under current Certification Requirements?
Legally we can because of the way Aircraft Type Certificates are treated under Law.
If UK HSE Standards are so effective.....why has EC not been forced to install Crash Worthy Fuel Tanks in new build AStars?
In the USA....it is simple....the FAA ignores the NTSB and the Operators do not want to spend the money except perhaps in the case of Air Methods the nation's largest EMS Operator.
there were quite a few of us in the UK who spent quite a few years landing (in my case), a Twin squirrel or a 902 on very similar dollies
If UK HSE Standards are so effective.....why has EC not been forced to install Crash Worthy Fuel Tanks in new build AStars?
If you are concerned about people getting injured working in the aviation environment with regards to slips, falls, noise and other hazards then HSE is there to protect them but as far as fuel tanks in an ASTAR it is not even close to their remit.
I think it is time to start giving medicine to the Dead......might prove to be more productive.
So you are wearing your hi-vis Vest, your Noise Cancelling Headset, natural fibre clothing, foot gear that covers your ankles, and your RAF Leather Gloves.....in your mid's 70's Certified AStar.
Remind me about this Safety Culture Concept again.
So you are wearing your hi-vis Vest, your Noise Cancelling Headset, natural fibre clothing, foot gear that covers your ankles, and your RAF Leather Gloves.....in your mid's 70's Certified AStar.
Remind me about this Safety Culture Concept again.
Tightgit
If UK HSE Standards are so effective.....why has EC not been forced to install Crash Worthy Fuel Tanks in new build AStars?
disclaimer: The previous comment is not written to support the contention that
UK HSE Standards are so effective
Avoid imitations
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Surely it's more relevant to stick to discussion about the survival aspects (or very sadly, the lack of) of this particular accident which occurred in USA, not the UK.
In any case, it apppears this accident was almost certainly precipitated by pilot training/competence/confidence issues. Not anything to do with H&S issues outside the cockpit..
In any case, it apppears this accident was almost certainly precipitated by pilot training/competence/confidence issues. Not anything to do with H&S issues outside the cockpit..
I'm just a lowly PPLH with a fair amount of time and experience.
I used to land SA341 on a dolly a fair bit bigger than this. But always with safety
Pilot so no issues there.
Also rated on R44 and I remember getting access to an R44 which was kept on
a dolly. When I asked the owner if he wanted me checked out for landing on it
He said he was happy for me to do it as he knew of my flying experience.
However I wasn't confident without instruction so I paid an experienced
Instructor who also used them in his daily job to show the correct technique
Once he had done this I found it to be fine to do.
Even so,after using it a lot on one occaision when I returned to land by myself
The wind had got up from an unfavourable direction so without even risking it
I stuck the R44 on the grass by the hangar and phoned the owner and told him
I was not happy about putting on the dolly that day. He was happy with my
Decision and thanked me for it.
R
I used to land SA341 on a dolly a fair bit bigger than this. But always with safety
Pilot so no issues there.
Also rated on R44 and I remember getting access to an R44 which was kept on
a dolly. When I asked the owner if he wanted me checked out for landing on it
He said he was happy for me to do it as he knew of my flying experience.
However I wasn't confident without instruction so I paid an experienced
Instructor who also used them in his daily job to show the correct technique
Once he had done this I found it to be fine to do.
Even so,after using it a lot on one occaision when I returned to land by myself
The wind had got up from an unfavourable direction so without even risking it
I stuck the R44 on the grass by the hangar and phoned the owner and told him
I was not happy about putting on the dolly that day. He was happy with my
Decision and thanked me for it.
R
Two things led to the death (directly) of these people:
1. Lack of experience in landing on trolleys - hence his OVEr reaction every time he compensated for the dollies movement.
2. Not wearing a proper crash helmet.
As soon as he overcontrolled - driving the tail rotor into the tarmac, the chopper spun and the G forces smacked his head up against the cockpit rendering him unconscious.
The rest is contentious.
No-one fought any fires, no one rescued them. No fuel tanks errupted into a ball of fire, no FAA rules killed them.
Possibly one of the most tragic accidents I have ever seen, watching fellow professionals die very slowly in the most bizarre way??
1. Lack of experience in landing on trolleys - hence his OVEr reaction every time he compensated for the dollies movement.
2. Not wearing a proper crash helmet.
As soon as he overcontrolled - driving the tail rotor into the tarmac, the chopper spun and the G forces smacked his head up against the cockpit rendering him unconscious.
The rest is contentious.
No-one fought any fires, no one rescued them. No fuel tanks errupted into a ball of fire, no FAA rules killed them.
Possibly one of the most tragic accidents I have ever seen, watching fellow professionals die very slowly in the most bizarre way??
Where is the autopsy report on that?
SAS - not sure you are getting the message that UK HSE is irrelevant in this case or any other similar crash.
@TC - to which I think should be added (1.5) not lowering the collective super-gently and testing for stability if there's even the slightest doubt about stability, or even if not.
You guys all have at least 10x the heli time and experience than I do, but this point seems kind of basic.
After hesitating for ages and clearly being uncomfortable with the landing, he then (I interpret, from the video) dropped the collective. Heli whaps back onto tail, cyclic shoved forward, residual lift brings nose up but then runs out, heli whaps back even harder, most likely breaking the tail rotor. THEN he yanks the collective, but since there's no tail rotor any more, it whips round (as we see from the one frame with the nose visible) and the rest follows.
Very sad. And amazing that it happened to someone with 25K hours. But then, it always is.
You guys all have at least 10x the heli time and experience than I do, but this point seems kind of basic.
After hesitating for ages and clearly being uncomfortable with the landing, he then (I interpret, from the video) dropped the collective. Heli whaps back onto tail, cyclic shoved forward, residual lift brings nose up but then runs out, heli whaps back even harder, most likely breaking the tail rotor. THEN he yanks the collective, but since there's no tail rotor any more, it whips round (as we see from the one frame with the nose visible) and the rest follows.
Very sad. And amazing that it happened to someone with 25K hours. But then, it always is.