Senior Aviation/Austin Aviation

[helicopterflyer]

On your website, you have some testimonials, namely :

Reviewer: Joe manchester
saved £4,300 so far and I'm still saving awesome product and service

Reviewer: Jeff Staffordshire
Can't thank these guys enough saved me thousands A+

Reviewer: Owen Chester
wish i had found this company when I started my ppl training but they have just saved me 7k on my commercial first class

Reviewer: Carl Essex
Just finished my PPL(H), last qtr to date I've saved £6,349 I had tried accountants at the start but because of the type of business they couldn''t give a real answer yes,no,maybe I was uurrrrrr !!!!!!! lol go for it.


Please could I contact these people for a chat?

This is all VERY interesting indeed.

I'm training for my PPL(H) now and upto 52 hours so far.

I looked into this last year when I started my training. I asked about the VAT thing (as 20% on top of £250 lesson is hard to swallow). So far, I have paid over £2600 of VAT on the lessons. Plus, there is VAT on the 52 landing fees I've had to pay, and VAT on the ground school courses I have taken and exams. I bet I am easily up to £3000 of VAT since starting this.

When I looked into this last year, the flying school said 'no' to me claiming the VAT back. I also checked with my accountant (who is senior partner of his firm and an ex-tax man) and he also said 'no'.

I have also 'moaned' about this to fellow student pilots and the qualified pilots at the airfield and they've all had to pay VAT, because their accountants and instructors have all said 'you can't claim back the VAT'.

I'd really like to know more about this.

Thanks

[Whirlygig]

If something seems to good to be true, it usually is.

Firstly, Senior Aviation is selling a business franchise and states that it doesn't matter with which school you are training

Originally Posted by their website

Your own Business website franchise, which you will sell flights online for the school you are training with, fully designed and live.

How would A. N. Other flight school feel about this?

I would be sceptical about any organisation that claims it can set up a business bank account and business credit card without credit checks? What happened to Money Laundering Regulations? Proof of ID?

Secondly, you cannot reclaim VAT and/or income tax for a PPL. I know some ppruners have done so in the past where they have demonstrated a business plan which encompassed CPL/FI or IR training immediately afterwards as part of a modular training programme but times have changed. When the company owner of this website has stated that he successfully managed to do so, it was ten years ago when the Inland Revenue and Customs & Excise were two separate organisations; they are now one - HM Revenue and Customs.

I've said it before, and I guess I'll say it again ... you can only reclaim VAT on your training if you become self-employed afterwards (either as a sole trader or via your own limited company through which you would pay yourself via PAYE and maybe dividends). If you become employed (i.e. North Sea), then the VAT reclaimed would have to be paid back as you are NOT in business in your own right. The mechanisms for reclaiming income tax (which is different to VAT) on pre-business training are, to the best of my knowledge, non-existent. Hell, I couldn't even reclaim income tax on my ACA training which I partly self-funded and that was back in 1990.

I reckon that the owners of this franchise model have found a local accountant who reckons they can get this past HMR&C; I, along with a few other ppruners here who are businessmen or who have sought professional advice, am dubious. Very dubious.

I would urge anyone here not to part with any money for this franchise model without checking it first with qualified professionals i.e. Chartered or Certified accountants or a member of the Institute of Tax. I would trust that this Senior Aviation would send the "fine print" and T&Cs for inspection before money has changed hands. Personally, I'd like to know the name of the accountant who does all this on ones behalf; presumably a 64-8 has to be signed in order for them to act as your agent?

Now may be a good time to point out that anyone can set up as an accountant; there are no restrictions so it's a good idea to check the actual qualification.

Cheers

Whirls

[Gordy]

Whirls----Love your style.......

Last edited by Whirlygig; 19th May 2013 at 16:54. Reason: Rioja-induced spolling ...

Be rude not too as they say.......

[Whirlygig]

I would dearly love to know why, whilst typing any reply to a thread, I cannot see my typos. As soon as I press the submit button, those typos fly out of the screen and slap me 'round the face.

Cheers

Whirls

[jerrysenior]

I'm trying not to get dragged into this, but as the owner some comments can be very damaging. My home address was posted on here and I've given out our flight school address, I don't think there's anything to hide, and have no need too.
As a lot of pilots have claimed vat and claimed tax, I think we are on the agreement that it does and can happen, its just that we have put it together as a package and a business, to take all the stress and time away from it, we are setting you up with a business and its totally legal, also if its done wrong and you don't get your vat number, its near impossible to convince the vat office any different so be careful.

As for getting a business bank account we can and we do supply one, it's got to be cleared for fraud checks with i.d no mystery there, all part of the service, no godfather involved

"Selling lesson's for their flight school", we don't see a problem with promoting the school their training with and bringing in more business, but if your school doesn't want you to after all the money you are spending with them, then I think it's a bit poor, but if the school doesn't for what ever reason, your business will sell training for our flight school and you can carry on training at yours, we look at it as another company selling for us.

people keep saying "contact accountant" "accountant" people do go to see the accountant, then they come to us, so after you've been to an accountant and you say "I want to claim my vat back and tax back on flying", they are going to say no otherwise we wouldn't be doing what we do.

hope thats cleared that bit up.

we offer a 100% money back guarantee if we can't save you money,and you know where we are if you don't !!!!!

and if you think we are going to plaster our business model all over the site "not going to happen"

also they are certified chartered accountants.

if you have any more problems, questions and would like to meet us at our wolverhampton airport office, for people that are really interested in joining us and meeting face to face, I'd be more than happy to discuss any questions you may have.

Have a good day and happy flying.

Jason

[500e]

Being a bit slow ( Learning to fly) I had long discussions with both HMRC & my accountant regarding both tax & VAT the accountants reply was "we will try it BUT it could \will come back to bight you".
HMRC, I never new they had a sense of humour one actually laughed

[Whirlygig]

and you say I want to claim my vat back and tax back on flying, they are going to say no otherwise we wouldn't be doing what we do.

I can promise you that any accountant who believes that it is genuinely possible to claim back VAT and Income Tax for flight training would say YES, as that way they would earn some fees. Even accountants need to eat.

Cheers

Whirls

[Old Age Pilot]

It may just be that I'm an old git and a bit out of touch with all you youngies but bad spelling and grammar is a huge put-off for me when spending money. Especially when related to obtaining a professional license. And does not put one's mind at ease when looking to someone for advice on such scary entities as HMRC, Tax and VAT.

Not meaning to be facetious, but there's no excuse for the above unless your eyes can't process red squiggly lines!

[jerrysenior]

Come on guys really?

[Whirlygig]

Sorry jerrysenior but actually yes, really. I've felt as though I've had to interpret what you're saying rather than truly understand it. You may well have some valid points but if they are not coherently made, other readers will likely misinterpret those points. You've complained of some potentially defamatory remarks but maybe those remarkss were made because you did not express yourself clearly.

Let's eat Grandma ... good grammar saves lives!

Cheers

Whirls

[jerrysenior]

point taken whirly

[Heathrow Harry]

If you are self-employed and you then claim back more VAT than you charged on you will get what you shelled out back - but do it too often and you can guarantee an inspection.....................

[Pittsextra]

This VAT reclaim isn't that complex and it is possible.

The first thing you must do is establish a trading position and company, register for VAT and then it is a simple input v output VAT (i.e how much you are paying in VAT for invoices you sent verses how much you paid in VAT for invoices you paid).

Obviously its the "trading position" element that is tricky since you can't charge for being a pilot without a commercial licence. However that doesn't mean you can't have an aviation business, who then trains its staff to become a pilot..

And of course a trading position doesn't need to be profitable as it can be supported via a directors loan account until the business is profitable.

[homonculus]

But it has to be trading. You have to be raising invoices. And in my case HMRC wanted a detailed business plan showing how the company could become profitable and when.

If you end up in dispute your accounting fees plus penalties and time will be far far greater than a proportion of 20% of your costs

[Pittsextra]

...in my case HMRC wanted a detailed business plan showing how the company could become profitable and when.

To which you might have answered that all this flight training, with the aim of becoming a commercial pilot, was part of boosting the companies revenue stream in the medium term and forms part of a change in the strategy of the business since inception etc, etc blah..??

There is a lot made of accounting fees, answering to HMRC and the fear of penalty. Frankly if you have a real business with a plan that is aviation centred then there is nothing to worry about because there are a great many real reasons why one might embark on pilot training to enhance/support or even evolve a current business.

For instance one great and long running aviation business in the UK would be Martin Baker. No doubt at some point, having done all the boffin bits, it might have been useful for someone to actually fly a plane and test it. Sure you could hire a pilot/plane short term but it would be perfectly reasonable for them to have trained someone to fly to support the needs of the business in the long term, and no doubt expensed via the business which included reclaiming the VAT.

On a smaller scale what about someone that might do aircraft re-sprays? Perhaps learning to fly might enable the business to give better service, etc, etc.

Business can change direction and evolve there is nothing dodge in that.

[John R81]

The crux of the matter is whether there is a real business. If there is, it might be painful to go through the audit by HMRC and you might have to prove your position before the First Tier Tribunal to win but with the right evidence and enough hard work you stand a chance.


UK tax planning

Not referrring to any particular business opportunity whether discussed on this thread so far or not.

Remember that if the main benefit (or one of the main benefits) of an intended course of action (known as 'an arrangement') is the obtaining of a tax advantage then the scheme promotor, or the person undertaking the scheme, must notify HMRC within 5 days of the scheme being available or within 30 days of implementation if you design the arrangement yourself. Failure to do so is an offence, even if the arrangement is correct, in a legal sense, and therefore it actually works. This remains the case even if there is a real business behind the arrangement.

If you think that these rules might apply, and you are a promoter, it is important to seek professional advice to confirm that the rules do not apply to your idea; or make a disclosure anyway to cover yourself. If you are using an arrangement that provides you with a tax benefit which is significant then make sure that you have been given a scheme number by the promoter or seek assurance from the promoter / seek your own professional advice to confirm that the disclosure rules do not apply OR talk to HMRC to confirm the position.

HMRC notes on these rules are reproduced below and the detailed version can be found at http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ria/disclosure-guidance.pdf. The rules are drawn to be as wide as possible, and Hallmarks 2-5 are most typically found:

Summary of the disclosure rules
Income Tax, Corporation Tax and Capital Gains Tax
The disclosure regime was introduced with effect from 1st August 2004 and was limited in scope to tax arrangements concerning employment or certain financial products. This was widened with effect from 1st August 2006 to the whole of income tax, corporation tax and capital gains tax.




A tax arrangement must be disclosed when:

• it will, or might be expected to, enable any person to obtain a tax advantage;
• that tax advantage is, or might be expected to be, the main benefit or one of the main benefits of the arrangement; and
• it is a tax arrangement that falls within any description (“hallmarks”) prescribed in the relevant regulations.

In most situations where a disclosure is required it must be made by the scheme “promoter” within 5 days of it being made available. However, the scheme user may need to make the disclosure where:

• the promoter is based outside the uk;
• the promoter is a lawyer and legal privilege applies; or
• there is no promoter.

The hallmarks are:

• wishing to keep the arrangements confidential from a competitor;
• wishing to keep the arrangements confidential from HMRC;
• arrangements for which a premium fee could reasonably be obtained;
• arrangements that include off market terms;
• arrangements that are standardised tax products;
• arrangements that are loss schemes; and
• arrangements that are certain leasing arrangements.

Upon disclosure, HMRC issue the promoter with an 8-digit scheme reference number for the disclosed scheme. By law the promoter must provide this number to each client that uses the scheme, who in turn must include the number on his or her return or form AAG4.

A person who designs and implements their own scheme must disclose it within 30 days of it being implemented.

Separately, there is also a disclosure requirement for arrangements intended to provide a VAT advantage. These rules are unlikely to apply; the business needs a turnover of at least £600,000 per annum.



This is information only: take advice from a suitably qualified person not an internet chat forum

[jerrysenior]

Doesn't apply to us as we are setting up a business to sell training online with an e-shop the fact that you can claim "if you wish" is irrelevant .

but a very good point nice to see facts posted.

thanks John r81

Jerry Senior

[firebird_uk]

Ignoring the VAT / Taxation element of this scheme, let's think about the flight school the student is learning through.

Do they really want their students competing online against them for customers? Given that the potential customer is searching the internet and has found a number of organisations able to offer let's say, a trial lesson, at a certain price at a certain airfield - do the school and their students want to compete for that business?

I know that if I had quoted a customer and then found someone else trying to sell me that same customer with "something in it for them" I'd tell them where to stick it. The student is unable to do the job and if he started passing business to competitors on the airfield I'm sure the relationship with the school would soon evaporate.

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for making training more cost effective for students, but getting them to buy a rod so they can fish in your pond seems a pretty stupid idea.

[Pittsextra]

Firebird - I'm not sure reading the website that you are actually competing with anyone... more just a booking agent?

I'm just not sure how that relationship is formalised - i.e. if you refer someone how you get paid your £10.

If that can be established its pretty nice as it does give you that trading position - just not sure why you need to spend £1600 to do something you could do for yourself....

[firebird_uk]

Pitts - Surely paying someone to sell you business you would/could/should have won yourself is competition in anyone's books?

To make it worse, unlike "voucher pimps" such as Groupon et al, your student is unlikely to be engaged in outbound business generation - they're just going to be competing for those customers Googling "cheap helicopter flight".

FB