UK NPAS discussion: thread Mk 2
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So you are right that Hampshire and CC Marshall has never run a helicopter. If anyone wanted to defend his position as the Air lead they might mention he used to work in Thames Valley.
One wonders what involvement/knowledge a busy Chief Constable could actually gain in the day to day workings of a busy ASU. I wonder how many hours he's flown as a pax..?
But thats probably a discussion for another thread..
Is there any truth to the rumours that there are are ASUs in the country that cannot self deploy..? Where is the lowest annual hour unit in the country.?
But the main question I suppose, in places like NWAOG, is.. is the prisoner count down, and is the number of pursuits arrived at down..?
Bob Ruprecht set up Hampshire ASU on a Cessna single in 1979 and it migrated to the Optica by 1985. That type let them down in a fatal accident over Ringwood and they shut down for a year or so as a result.
The Optica came back but the engineering again let it down when the fan failed.
You can blame the unit for being a bit gullible on the Optica but it did what it was designed to do...... provide VFR daylight observation on limited funds. It was a bit of a flyingclub throughout [but the Met and others were guilty of that into the 1990s] but it was a money thing.
When it came to the cuts Hampshire was an easy target, low key, low funding and an aircraft that represented poor value for money [low availability, regular problems with the engines, long maintenance periods] it was an easy 'Grand Gesture' for Alex Marshall to make that saved very little real cash. Add to that the retirement of Bob Ruprecht and all the right boxes were ticked.
It may be said that a similar process is forming over whether the Surrey or Sussex helicopter is to go.
The Optica came back but the engineering again let it down when the fan failed.
You can blame the unit for being a bit gullible on the Optica but it did what it was designed to do...... provide VFR daylight observation on limited funds. It was a bit of a flyingclub throughout [but the Met and others were guilty of that into the 1990s] but it was a money thing.
When it came to the cuts Hampshire was an easy target, low key, low funding and an aircraft that represented poor value for money [low availability, regular problems with the engines, long maintenance periods] it was an easy 'Grand Gesture' for Alex Marshall to make that saved very little real cash. Add to that the retirement of Bob Ruprecht and all the right boxes were ticked.
It may be said that a similar process is forming over whether the Surrey or Sussex helicopter is to go.
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Morris,
You have as much chance of getting those prisoner figures, as I do of autorotating onto Tranquility Base.
They used to be displayed on the walls of most Unit bases, but I bet most are no longer posted where there have been changes.
My candidate for lowest hours flown would be Dyfed-Powys, but those Units competing for that prize will be shy to publicise their figures, I suspect.
PANews,
I had wondered which way that "contest" would go. There will be a host of pressures being applied to the decision, perhaps even some from the local air ambulance setup. Presumably the Sussex cab is a lot older than the Surrey one, but I don't know how the flying hours play. Pilots: Sussex D/E, Surrey contractors. If it is to be Redhill, then some of the Sussex pilots/observers may be reluctant to re-locate. [All speculation, I acknowledge, but this is a rumour network]
You have as much chance of getting those prisoner figures, as I do of autorotating onto Tranquility Base.
They used to be displayed on the walls of most Unit bases, but I bet most are no longer posted where there have been changes.My candidate for lowest hours flown would be Dyfed-Powys, but those Units competing for that prize will be shy to publicise their figures, I suspect.
PANews,
I had wondered which way that "contest" would go. There will be a host of pressures being applied to the decision, perhaps even some from the local air ambulance setup. Presumably the Sussex cab is a lot older than the Surrey one, but I don't know how the flying hours play. Pilots: Sussex D/E, Surrey contractors. If it is to be Redhill, then some of the Sussex pilots/observers may be reluctant to re-locate. [All speculation, I acknowledge, but this is a rumour network]
Last edited by Helinut; 1st Jul 2012 at 10:55.
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Helinut, Just to correct you Hampshire ASU has never operated out of Fairoaks, the ASU was based at Lee on Solent (Daedalus) for a number of years with the plank.
It was Surrey who were forced to move from Fairoaks to Odiham because of the continuing threat to the heli.
I would suggest that if you ask any of the Hampshire troops on the ground today they would welcome the Plank back.
It was Surrey who were forced to move from Fairoaks to Odiham because of the continuing threat to the heli.
I would suggest that if you ask any of the Hampshire troops on the ground today they would welcome the Plank back.
But the main question I suppose, in places like NWAOG, is.. is the prisoner count down, and is the number of pursuits arrived at down..?
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ahb,
I believe what I wrote was that Surrey AOU and its helicopter was at Fairoaks (in Surrey), before it moved to Odiham (in Hampshire). That is certainly what I meant, and is certainly what happened.
I believe what I wrote was that Surrey AOU and its helicopter was at Fairoaks (in Surrey), before it moved to Odiham (in Hampshire). That is certainly what I meant, and is certainly what happened.
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Looks like the "forced" collaboration order has just gone through a couple of days ago. (No turning back now as if they were ever going to)
The Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012
And if anyone is interested in what was said when the committee debated it:
Draft Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012
The Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012
And if anyone is interested in what was said when the committee debated it:
Draft Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
...the Minister has assured the House and the public that 97% of England and Wales will still remain within 20 minutes’ flying time.
Cornwall - 1,376 sq miles
England & Wales - 58,368 sq miles
There's 2.358% in one fell swoop! Add in the South East coast, West Wales, Herts & Beds, etc.... 'pants on fire'
Tightgit
Ah Silsoe. I think that will mean 97% of the population, not 97% of the geographical area, but you knew that anyway, didn't you?
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NPAS Message translated into English
Successfully apprehending, prosecuting and sentencing criminals is expensive. We can do less of it and thereby save money, which is obviously a good thing!
Successfully apprehending, prosecuting and sentencing criminals is expensive. We can do less of it and thereby save money, which is obviously a good thing!
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NPAS spin.
Nick Herbert. (policing minister)
"As has been suggested, the authority’s concern was that response times to incidents in much of south Yorkshire would have been longer under the original NPAS proposals. Set against that, however, the hours available for air support coverage would have increased and the NPAS would have provided cover for periods when aircraft were undergoing maintenance. The local solution is preferred by the force and it is a good route forward. "
I recall the police authority chairman saying "we've a gun to our head so we have no choice".!
The Yorkshire ASU mutual aid set up ALREADY provides cover 24/7 for all 3 members AND cover during maintenance.
SYP have gained nothing by joining NPAS except an extra £6000per year to pay, over and above their existing budget, for the privilege of losing half their operating hours and half their staff...
"As has been suggested, the authority’s concern was that response times to incidents in much of south Yorkshire would have been longer under the original NPAS proposals. Set against that, however, the hours available for air support coverage would have increased and the NPAS would have provided cover for periods when aircraft were undergoing maintenance. The local solution is preferred by the force and it is a good route forward. "
I recall the police authority chairman saying "we've a gun to our head so we have no choice".!
The Yorkshire ASU mutual aid set up ALREADY provides cover 24/7 for all 3 members AND cover during maintenance.
SYP have gained nothing by joining NPAS except an extra £6000per year to pay, over and above their existing budget, for the privilege of losing half their operating hours and half their staff...
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Spin spin and more spin.
It was their choice. They could have saved the extra money which I think was a little more than 6k.
SYP have gained nothing by joining NPAS except an extra £6000per year to pay, over and above their existing budget, for the privilege of losing half their operating hours and half their staff...
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I think that will mean 97% of the population, not 97% of the geographical area,
...the Minister has assured the House and the public that 97% of England and Wales will still remain within 20 minutes’ flying time.
Smoke and mirrors, smoke & mirrors
England pop 2001 census 49,138,831
Wales pop 2001 census 2,903,085
Total UK population covered by NPAS = 52,041,916
97% = 50,480,658
So the equivalent of roughly the whole population of Wales, not being covered by air support is, in the Ministers eyes alright then
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Like most single targets generated by politicians concerning service targets it is essentially meaningless.
Its the same as the 8 minute target for 999 ambulance arrivals or the 4 hr dwell time in A&E. It has no decent logical basis and once it exists it becomes the only goal. People will now be employed to make sure that the stats show it is fulfilled (not by manning aircraft but by fiddling with the stats before they are issued). It is the same thing with target crimes. Once they exist, detectives are formed into small admin teams who spend their days in an office massaging stats and crime reports so that burglaries (or whatever) magically become criminal damage.
Sorry for the rant. I feel better now.
But know one ever asks those who do the job what are sensible targets.
Its the same as the 8 minute target for 999 ambulance arrivals or the 4 hr dwell time in A&E. It has no decent logical basis and once it exists it becomes the only goal. People will now be employed to make sure that the stats show it is fulfilled (not by manning aircraft but by fiddling with the stats before they are issued). It is the same thing with target crimes. Once they exist, detectives are formed into small admin teams who spend their days in an office massaging stats and crime reports so that burglaries (or whatever) magically become criminal damage.
Sorry for the rant. I feel better now.
But know one ever asks those who do the job what are sensible targets.