Helicopter Crash Maitland NSW
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SMO....
My point exactly d##khead - he should stay doing what he is supposedly good at/trained to do and stay out of the GA/Commercial industry because his track record to date has been less than ordinary! It does not matter how much of a nice bloke he is.
Where and when has he gained his experience on the French machines to be competent and current to conduct a CPLH flight test on one anyway??
Wake up you clowns - these guys have jobs, are paid well and have good enough working conditions - they don't need to be doing outside work eroding the IP base of the industry.
I have said it before and I will now say it again! - if the helicopter industry can only survive on casual pilots who work on their day off from permanent jobs there is no future for it.
What if this highly qualified and experienced CP had broken his back or worse - where does that leave the EMS operation who pays his salary, loss of licence insurance and other benefits??
"...the plush leather seat were the best I got to sit into...." - you idiot!!!
My point exactly d##khead - he should stay doing what he is supposedly good at/trained to do and stay out of the GA/Commercial industry because his track record to date has been less than ordinary! It does not matter how much of a nice bloke he is.
Where and when has he gained his experience on the French machines to be competent and current to conduct a CPLH flight test on one anyway??
Wake up you clowns - these guys have jobs, are paid well and have good enough working conditions - they don't need to be doing outside work eroding the IP base of the industry.
I have said it before and I will now say it again! - if the helicopter industry can only survive on casual pilots who work on their day off from permanent jobs there is no future for it.
What if this highly qualified and experienced CP had broken his back or worse - where does that leave the EMS operation who pays his salary, loss of licence insurance and other benefits??
"...the plush leather seat were the best I got to sit into...." - you idiot!!!
Its nearly always us aussies that start throwing the vicious punches first.
Let's wait to see what happened. The thousands of hours this guy has flown, the hundreds (yes hundreds) of lives he has directly helped to save or improve, the fantastic organisation that he has been such a major part of, the tireless and unrecognised industry work he has done on SAR and night/NVG, the amount of young pilots and crewman he has given hope to, taught, and mentored.
Dont any of these things entitle him to some little peice of respect? Just a little hesitation on the "condemn him" button to wait to find out what happened?
Bueller?
Let's wait to see what happened. The thousands of hours this guy has flown, the hundreds (yes hundreds) of lives he has directly helped to save or improve, the fantastic organisation that he has been such a major part of, the tireless and unrecognised industry work he has done on SAR and night/NVG, the amount of young pilots and crewman he has given hope to, taught, and mentored.
Dont any of these things entitle him to some little peice of respect? Just a little hesitation on the "condemn him" button to wait to find out what happened?
Bueller?
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Originally Posted by Max Dover
SMO....
....... to conduct a CPLH flight test on one anyway??
....... to conduct a CPLH flight test on one anyway??
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Yes
MD. Would love to have a beer with you one day. You sound like you know a lot.
Anyway, I have a source up in that area who is on the case, and it is not BBQ or Tomato. But Just a few Q's for you, excuse my inaccuracies will you;
In that Region how many instructors could this guy have picked from for that training (Please exclude the one he did choose)?
Did you manage to have a close look at these 350's while on display in that rather cold hangar prior to the auction?
When was the last Maintenance Inspection done on this 350 (Including those very nice leather seats, which I assume due to no indicated fatalities held up up quite nicely during the crash)?
My guess is that you answered; Zero, No & 2 weeks ago (An ex girlfriend spotted the guy in Bankstown for Maintenance just recently).
Maybe this CP ran over a black cat on the way, or something failed mechanically, or maybe he is in incompetent. Either way the report will make good reading for those who do not know sh@t from Clay.
P.s I like the one about training the TCF CP, Drawing a long bow there china, that would have to be a bit of speculative toilet rubbish hey.
Keep on truckin.
NMSA.
Anyway, I have a source up in that area who is on the case, and it is not BBQ or Tomato. But Just a few Q's for you, excuse my inaccuracies will you;
In that Region how many instructors could this guy have picked from for that training (Please exclude the one he did choose)?
Did you manage to have a close look at these 350's while on display in that rather cold hangar prior to the auction?
When was the last Maintenance Inspection done on this 350 (Including those very nice leather seats, which I assume due to no indicated fatalities held up up quite nicely during the crash)?
My guess is that you answered; Zero, No & 2 weeks ago (An ex girlfriend spotted the guy in Bankstown for Maintenance just recently).
Maybe this CP ran over a black cat on the way, or something failed mechanically, or maybe he is in incompetent. Either way the report will make good reading for those who do not know sh@t from Clay.
P.s I like the one about training the TCF CP, Drawing a long bow there china, that would have to be a bit of speculative toilet rubbish hey.
Keep on truckin.
NMSA.
Yet another case of " emergency" training endangering more lives and wrecking many many more choppers than the real thing !!!! Why , out of interest would you need to hover without hydraulics ??? If they fail in flight you do a slow run on and if they fail in the hovver you will have time to put down from the accumulators.........if they just went out , almost impossible, then just do your best , at 3 foot you are going to walk away anyway. ie the point of some of the "training" is......err.....well its good fun macho stuff,even if it does put the premiums sky high for everybody which then makes less people fly,which means less jobs, so i guess less helis will be built,so less training and therefore ....less accidents !!!!!!!!
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Just a couple of statements in answer to some of the comments above.
There are only six ATOs in the NSW area (including the one in the incident) listed on the CASA website.
With my limited knowledge of what they are all doing for a crust, I still have the feeling none of them fly an AS350 for a living. Therefore, no one up to the minute current on the machine.
A flight test calls for the student to demonstrate proficiency in the possible emergencies for the aircraft type. One of those for the 350 would be hydraulic failure.
What do you think your chances are of getting a CASA FOI who is available and current?
Nigel, I must admitt, I agree very much with your comment regarding training for emergencies that very, very rarely happen. It is a requirement that is almost out of date with todays machinery. I suppose the big problem is that they can't be ruled out altogether so you need to know what to do in case it does occur. Shame there aren't more simulators approved for this in Aus. I have just come back from the Bell training school in Texas after doing the 407 course again. Great bit of training but carries no weight with CASA, I've still got to do a BFR.
There are only six ATOs in the NSW area (including the one in the incident) listed on the CASA website.
With my limited knowledge of what they are all doing for a crust, I still have the feeling none of them fly an AS350 for a living. Therefore, no one up to the minute current on the machine.
A flight test calls for the student to demonstrate proficiency in the possible emergencies for the aircraft type. One of those for the 350 would be hydraulic failure.
What do you think your chances are of getting a CASA FOI who is available and current?
Nigel, I must admitt, I agree very much with your comment regarding training for emergencies that very, very rarely happen. It is a requirement that is almost out of date with todays machinery. I suppose the big problem is that they can't be ruled out altogether so you need to know what to do in case it does occur. Shame there aren't more simulators approved for this in Aus. I have just come back from the Bell training school in Texas after doing the 407 course again. Great bit of training but carries no weight with CASA, I've still got to do a BFR.
BigMike, I've flown them with and without autopilot fitted hydraulics off, 10 years ago now though, but can't remember any differences operationally as far as emergency practice went.
We used to mainly do running landings, but would sometimes do hydraulics off hovering (although as has been said above, I have to ask myself why in hindsight) and it wasn't that hard.
'Caution - story coming on' That reminds me of one day when I did the hydraulic test on the ground, the collective lock sprang off and we leapt into the air, stuffed around like a drunken dragonfly for a little while and landed again, wasted a couple of heartbeats but no real dramas.
Some (don't know if it's all) of the ex-military machines have a tail rotor load compensator fitted, a closed-loop type device to help with hydraulics-off tail rotor emergencies - that was after my time so I don't know if there are any issues with them.
We used to mainly do running landings, but would sometimes do hydraulics off hovering (although as has been said above, I have to ask myself why in hindsight) and it wasn't that hard.
'Caution - story coming on' That reminds me of one day when I did the hydraulic test on the ground, the collective lock sprang off and we leapt into the air, stuffed around like a drunken dragonfly for a little while and landed again, wasted a couple of heartbeats but no real dramas.
Some (don't know if it's all) of the ex-military machines have a tail rotor load compensator fitted, a closed-loop type device to help with hydraulics-off tail rotor emergencies - that was after my time so I don't know if there are any issues with them.
It is very important to keep hand on the collective when you flick the hyd switch , it will often jump out of the lock down and you will get airborne. One was written off here only about a year ago just like that.
On the note of "out of date" training i agree with you that a lot of the modern machinery is so reliable some emergencies are really not worth practicing. Hovvering without hydraulics has never been required, in fact i think it says in manual NOT to do it , so really it is just a party trick.
On the note of "out of date" training i agree with you that a lot of the modern machinery is so reliable some emergencies are really not worth practicing. Hovvering without hydraulics has never been required, in fact i think it says in manual NOT to do it , so really it is just a party trick.
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SMOUFW....
No need to get too emotional - let's stay with the facts. This CP/ATO may be a very nice guy and very experienced - we are all nice guys aren't we????
r44tropic......
New paint and leather do not make a new machine.
800......
How many CPLH flight tests are conducted in an AS350??
I am sure we would all like to believe that if someone can afford to buy an AS350 they could afford to get tested by an experienced and current AS350 testing officer to minimise any risk of damage or injury. Maitland is not the center of aviation in this country.
NMSA.......
Where from and what these helicopters have done in the past is irrelevant. They are on the Civvie Aussie Register approved for Charter et all with new logbooks, MR, paint, leather...... (since when has leather seats saved anybody in an accident?) BTW - don't rely on the ATSB to give all the facts towards what causes accidents.
MD is correct - as you will find out eventually that the TCF CP was tested by this CP/ATO. But let's leave that one for now shall we??!!??
nigelh......
Spot on buddy - all the way from the UK. The Accident and Investigation websites worldwide have numerous examples of rapped up, rolled over AS350s. Besides - I will double check the flight manual but I am sure it states clearly - "Do not hover or taxi without hydraulic pressure....."
McGowan......
I have been told that the regulations will change regarding CASA recognising overseas training courses towards HFR/CIR renewals. About time! You're lucky to have done a Bell course - second to none in my opinion. The helicopter industry aren't the only ones in dire staraits here - what do Global Express pilots do?????
No need to get too emotional - let's stay with the facts. This CP/ATO may be a very nice guy and very experienced - we are all nice guys aren't we????
r44tropic......
New paint and leather do not make a new machine.
800......
How many CPLH flight tests are conducted in an AS350??
I am sure we would all like to believe that if someone can afford to buy an AS350 they could afford to get tested by an experienced and current AS350 testing officer to minimise any risk of damage or injury. Maitland is not the center of aviation in this country.
NMSA.......
Where from and what these helicopters have done in the past is irrelevant. They are on the Civvie Aussie Register approved for Charter et all with new logbooks, MR, paint, leather...... (since when has leather seats saved anybody in an accident?) BTW - don't rely on the ATSB to give all the facts towards what causes accidents.
MD is correct - as you will find out eventually that the TCF CP was tested by this CP/ATO. But let's leave that one for now shall we??!!??
nigelh......
Spot on buddy - all the way from the UK. The Accident and Investigation websites worldwide have numerous examples of rapped up, rolled over AS350s. Besides - I will double check the flight manual but I am sure it states clearly - "Do not hover or taxi without hydraulic pressure....."
McGowan......
I have been told that the regulations will change regarding CASA recognising overseas training courses towards HFR/CIR renewals. About time! You're lucky to have done a Bell course - second to none in my opinion. The helicopter industry aren't the only ones in dire staraits here - what do Global Express pilots do?????
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Grosser,
Spot on re the Flight Manual. This was referred to before the attempt to hover with hydraulics off was made - and after the pilot refused instruction from CP to take off and hover without hydraulics. The CP still decided to TO without hydraulics in contravention of FM - to show the pilot that the FM was for sissies and that it could be done as he had done numerous times before. Extremely idiotic thing to do - and there will be consequences down the line. Manufacturers reps in MLB at time were horrified.
Di
Spot on re the Flight Manual. This was referred to before the attempt to hover with hydraulics off was made - and after the pilot refused instruction from CP to take off and hover without hydraulics. The CP still decided to TO without hydraulics in contravention of FM - to show the pilot that the FM was for sissies and that it could be done as he had done numerous times before. Extremely idiotic thing to do - and there will be consequences down the line. Manufacturers reps in MLB at time were horrified.
Di
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grosser
this thread is coming full circle back to Nick Lappos question- "when is training for safety not enough?"
from previous responses an answer may be to have pilots that can and will read the flight Manual, you know how much does that happen? Captain check driver says, "I'll just show you this and --oh--- s*** too late, --bugger it's not in the approved manual".
Funny that, Mainly because very capable experienced pilots built the flight manual after oodles of test flying and the manufacturer is prepared to back them by publishing that data in the Manual.
where is the oz HAA on the policy of FOI's, ATO's etc currency, availabilty or even roster system.
come to think of it 'where bloody hell are yer', HAA
from previous responses an answer may be to have pilots that can and will read the flight Manual, you know how much does that happen? Captain check driver says, "I'll just show you this and --oh--- s*** too late, --bugger it's not in the approved manual".
Funny that, Mainly because very capable experienced pilots built the flight manual after oodles of test flying and the manufacturer is prepared to back them by publishing that data in the Manual.
where is the oz HAA on the policy of FOI's, ATO's etc currency, availabilty or even roster system.
come to think of it 'where bloody hell are yer', HAA
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Quote:"I have been told that the regulations will change regarding CASA recognising overseas training courses towards HFR/CIR renewals. About time! You're lucky to have done a Bell course - second to none in my opinion. The helicopter industry aren't the only ones in dire staraits here - what do Global Express pilots do?????"
No change in the Regs according to the FOIs I spoke to 2 weeks ago. I regularly do simulator training in the US, but it is not acknowledged by CASA because I do not work for a CAR217 company. Still need a BFR and IRT, problem being trying to find an ATO anywhere in this country qualified to do it.
Global Express pilots go to Statford, Conn. for their training. But they don't have to hover hydraulics off.
Don't be too fast to bag this ATO.
Don't bag the owner/victim for not finding one more experienced on type - ATOs are rare enough at present, and CASA is reluctant to create any more. Many of the ATOs on the CASA website retired more than 3 years ago, but the list is still there.
No change in the Regs according to the FOIs I spoke to 2 weeks ago. I regularly do simulator training in the US, but it is not acknowledged by CASA because I do not work for a CAR217 company. Still need a BFR and IRT, problem being trying to find an ATO anywhere in this country qualified to do it.
Global Express pilots go to Statford, Conn. for their training. But they don't have to hover hydraulics off.
Don't be too fast to bag this ATO.
Don't bag the owner/victim for not finding one more experienced on type - ATOs are rare enough at present, and CASA is reluctant to create any more. Many of the ATOs on the CASA website retired more than 3 years ago, but the list is still there.
Topend re ATO,
contact Ray Cronin from Kestrel Aviation in Victoria. He drafted an official HAA position on ATO's late last year, and as far as I know, has submitted it through to CASA. Also check with Rosmarie McRae (HAA pres) to see if she has a copy. Makes informative reading indeed.
Desguise: you wont get certification tick off the sim trips until you pay an all expenses holiday (read certification validation) trip for a mob of CASA guys to assess whether or not the poor backward USA and JAA have been right to certify their simulator before the Aussie experts have said so.
Mind you a CIR should be done with an Aussie certified ATO because of the significantly different flight rules and procedures. if you are having difficulty finding an ATO for IFR, join the club. A letter to CASA is quick to write and will help them determine the priorities of attention.
BTW, the BFR can be done overseas, and it does not require an Aussie instructor. As long as it is a required company checkride of a company in a contracting state, you are laughing.
contact Ray Cronin from Kestrel Aviation in Victoria. He drafted an official HAA position on ATO's late last year, and as far as I know, has submitted it through to CASA. Also check with Rosmarie McRae (HAA pres) to see if she has a copy. Makes informative reading indeed.
Desguise: you wont get certification tick off the sim trips until you pay an all expenses holiday (read certification validation) trip for a mob of CASA guys to assess whether or not the poor backward USA and JAA have been right to certify their simulator before the Aussie experts have said so.
Mind you a CIR should be done with an Aussie certified ATO because of the significantly different flight rules and procedures. if you are having difficulty finding an ATO for IFR, join the club. A letter to CASA is quick to write and will help them determine the priorities of attention.
BTW, the BFR can be done overseas, and it does not require an Aussie instructor. As long as it is a required company checkride of a company in a contracting state, you are laughing.
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The controls both Hydraulics ON and Hydraulics OFF are noticably heavier on the ex military AS350's than your standard civilian machine. I believe hovering with the hydraulics OFF is not permitted in the flight manual on the military machine.
Word on the grape vine is that the instructor tried to pick the machine up off the ground with hydraulics OFF
, even though the student, who owned the now wrecked machine 
said hydraulics OFF hovering was not permitted in the flight manual.
Word on the grape vine is that the instructor tried to pick the machine up off the ground with hydraulics OFF
, even though the student, who owned the now wrecked machine said hydraulics OFF hovering was not permitted in the flight manual.
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I am disgusted by some of the comments that have been written here.
Firstly, it's an accident . Big deal!! They can happen in any aircraft at anytime - take your pick. Who gives a toss if it is an R22 or AS350, AS355 or MI-26?? We should be thankful that no-one was killed or seriously injured.
Secondly, the instructor who was conducting the test is one of the nicest and most experienced pilots I know. He has been conducting CPL flight tests for many, many years. He has many hours logged on the AS350.
Diatryma - you were on board the aircraft at the time were you?
Big Mike
The AS355 has an accumulator on the tail rotor so that it will store some HYD pressure in the event of a loss which gives you time to bring the aircraft to a manageable configuration (ie. slow the aircraft down) before all pressure is lost and the controls lock up. I believe that the AS350B2 and B3 have a tail rotor accumulator fitted as standard.
To all you hidden back stabbers out there - Pull your heads in!!!
Firstly, it's an accident . Big deal!! They can happen in any aircraft at anytime - take your pick. Who gives a toss if it is an R22 or AS350, AS355 or MI-26?? We should be thankful that no-one was killed or seriously injured.
Secondly, the instructor who was conducting the test is one of the nicest and most experienced pilots I know. He has been conducting CPL flight tests for many, many years. He has many hours logged on the AS350.
However, in this case they both checked the Flight Manual, but the CP still went ahead!
Big Mike
The AS355 has an accumulator on the tail rotor so that it will store some HYD pressure in the event of a loss which gives you time to bring the aircraft to a manageable configuration (ie. slow the aircraft down) before all pressure is lost and the controls lock up. I believe that the AS350B2 and B3 have a tail rotor accumulator fitted as standard.
To all you hidden back stabbers out there - Pull your heads in!!!
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Oogle,
No - I wasn't on board the aircraft at the time - thankfully.
However from some of your remarks it may be you are too close to this??
There are accidents and there are accidents.
Di
No - I wasn't on board the aircraft at the time - thankfully.
However from some of your remarks it may be you are too close to this??
There are accidents and there are accidents.
Di
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As a Helicopter pilot, I get on Pprune and read threads in the hope I might learn from someone elses adventures or mistakes, most of the time this seems to be worth looking at. Sometimes though, it seems that there are people who are very quick to slag off anyone who has the misfortune to have an accident.
There are people who hide behind the anonymous nick names (I was too lazy to think of one) who are the first every time to jump on whoever has make any kind of mistake.
Those who are complaining about this ATO don't say much about their background, don't say if they actually have more experience or are better qualified for the job than the person in question. Have they ever done any instructing, any check or training at all? A lot of the negative comments on this thread sound like envy to me. Never going to get as good as this bloke so rip into him when you can, easy if you're not doing it to their face. Disappointing to others.
There are people who hide behind the anonymous nick names (I was too lazy to think of one) who are the first every time to jump on whoever has make any kind of mistake.
Those who are complaining about this ATO don't say much about their background, don't say if they actually have more experience or are better qualified for the job than the person in question. Have they ever done any instructing, any check or training at all? A lot of the negative comments on this thread sound like envy to me. Never going to get as good as this bloke so rip into him when you can, easy if you're not doing it to their face. Disappointing to others.