Training & Flying in America: Visa information
Old and cynical!
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You'd probably be better posting in the wannabees Professional training forum.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdi...php?forumid=14
http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdi...php?forumid=14
Old and cynical!
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Simon, if I didn't make myself clear, I'm sorry. The reason I suggested the training forum was because I felt that you would get a better response there. There are a lot more people using that forum who go stateside. Als, there is a visa "sticky" thread there and I'm sure that the author of it will put you on the right track.
Good luck!
Good luck!
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Availability of instructors and aircraft is much improved. The school is busy but there are about a dozen more instructors and the new CBis are making a big difference. Another new one arrived last week and two more are being flown from the factory next week. A couple more Robbie instrument trainers are on line also since New Year, making a total of 10 or 11 IFR ships out of about 32. The courses are full until July or September so you likely won't get started for a few months and there should be at least six more helis by then.
Ts&Ps
Ts&Ps
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HAI is a good school and although busy, you are still getting the quality training that it is renowned for. I dont know of any other school that can match everything they do, and in terms of hours, the people that say they only get 2 hours a week are probably not pushed to fly much more than that. If you are hard working and push hard with your instructor you can get everything done in less than 9 months, and then you have 15 months to work to build as many hours as you can. And since you all know that HAI is really busy, then think of it this way. If you get hired there you know you will be flying your ass off with students. If you dont get work there then the rest is up to you.
For visa purposes, the best way to get the most of your time is ask for an M1, come over and do your private and instrument and most of your commercial, then go home and get a J1 visa, comeback sit your Commercial checkride and get your CFI and CFII and then you should have loads of time to build a substantial amount of hours while working.
If you have the money I would advise doing the FAA and JAA together. It will require you to put the work in and not sit around on your ass, but having both will pay off for you in the end.
Good luck with the flying. And dont forget, HAI is situated in the middle of Florida. So compare the weather there to Oregon and other places and tell me who you think will get the most flying year round. Common sense really!!
For visa purposes, the best way to get the most of your time is ask for an M1, come over and do your private and instrument and most of your commercial, then go home and get a J1 visa, comeback sit your Commercial checkride and get your CFI and CFII and then you should have loads of time to build a substantial amount of hours while working.
If you have the money I would advise doing the FAA and JAA together. It will require you to put the work in and not sit around on your ass, but having both will pay off for you in the end.
Good luck with the flying. And dont forget, HAI is situated in the middle of Florida. So compare the weather there to Oregon and other places and tell me who you think will get the most flying year round. Common sense really!!
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I'm going to HAI in September to do the joint JAA+FAA CPL course. I'm enrolling in the next couple of weeks once I get the deposit sorted out.
Anybody else from the UK going over there that's getting HAI to sort out shared accomodation for them?
Si
Anybody else from the UK going over there that's getting HAI to sort out shared accomodation for them?
Si
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What a crock of ****. That place must be the fastfood version of the helicopter training industry.
How the heck can you say you are "getting quality" with statements like this?:
HAI is a good school and although busy, you are still getting the quality training that it is renowned for. I dont know of any other school that can match everything they do, and in terms of hours, the people that say they only get 2 hours a week are probably not pushed to fly much more than that. If you are hard working and push hard with your instructor you can get everything done in less than 9 months, and then you have 15 months to work to build as many hours as you can. And since you all know that HAI is really busy, then think of it this way. If you get hired there you know you will be flying your ass off with students.
SO, you come out of your licence and then start teaching one of your pommie brethen all about the in's and out's of the helicopter game.
Its a joke.
This is the tragedy of our industry that the blind are leading the blind and "the man" (thanks to Jack B) is getting rich at your expense.
Why can you english not just use your initiative and seek a better road?
Read some books, magazines and research what you might need to be doing with this career of yours. Get off your own arse and find out the visa requirements??
Select a training organisation that might offer you more than just a ticket and token instructors licence.
Select a company where you might be able to go out and ground crew to watch the goings on of the business.
Select somewhere that you can sit in the coffee shop and hear real pilots with real jobs swap war stories lathered in bull****, that might actually have something contained in them you can learn from.
This all sounds a little like grade school...
Good luck tossing your hard earned pounds away.
I hope Bert, Rotorboy and SAS have a stab at this one too. What a crock.
How the heck can you say you are "getting quality" with statements like this?:
HAI is a good school and although busy, you are still getting the quality training that it is renowned for. I dont know of any other school that can match everything they do, and in terms of hours, the people that say they only get 2 hours a week are probably not pushed to fly much more than that. If you are hard working and push hard with your instructor you can get everything done in less than 9 months, and then you have 15 months to work to build as many hours as you can. And since you all know that HAI is really busy, then think of it this way. If you get hired there you know you will be flying your ass off with students.
SO, you come out of your licence and then start teaching one of your pommie brethen all about the in's and out's of the helicopter game.
Its a joke.
This is the tragedy of our industry that the blind are leading the blind and "the man" (thanks to Jack B) is getting rich at your expense.
Why can you english not just use your initiative and seek a better road?
Read some books, magazines and research what you might need to be doing with this career of yours. Get off your own arse and find out the visa requirements??
Select a training organisation that might offer you more than just a ticket and token instructors licence.
Select a company where you might be able to go out and ground crew to watch the goings on of the business.
Select somewhere that you can sit in the coffee shop and hear real pilots with real jobs swap war stories lathered in bull****, that might actually have something contained in them you can learn from.
This all sounds a little like grade school...
Good luck tossing your hard earned pounds away.
I hope Bert, Rotorboy and SAS have a stab at this one too. What a crock.
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Don't be so hard on people doing the J1 route. If training in Europe wasn't so prohibitively expensive, more people would stay in Europe and train.
For those of us that want to go the integrated route, (I'm not young enough to spend time washing helicopters for pennies), all the schools in the UK operate pretty much the same as HAI. i.e. They are primarily schools, and exposure to the cynical old buggers that spout stories "lathered in bull****" in the coffee bars is minor. Plus, what with the cost of the training, I'd be begging in order to pay for that much coffee.
I've spoken to several CFI's at UK training schools. Even the ones trying to get me to sign on with them have a respect for HAI's quality and many have recruited their graduates themselves.
By it's very nature the industry has changed to accomodate integrated courses. So many people take that route, and (against all odds apparently..) go on to successful careers. Are all these negative attitudes simply a matter of "if it's not as difficult for you as it was for me, then it's not good enough"?
Everybody acepts that ideally training would be done by squillion hour veterans who can keep their students amused with stories of barnstorming in the 1920's, but it's just not a reality, anywhere. HAI, CabAir, OAT, UK, US, wherever, students are very likely to get taught by an instructor little more than a year further into their careers themselves. So really, what's the difference if I decide to put my $60k+ into an American organisation rather than a British one?
Regards,
Si
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Mr. Chairman, you are absolutely correct. Its is a crock, and it is the Mc Donald’s of flight training. HAI ‘s student base is mostly foreign, tons of Pome’s and lots of Scandys. During the early 90’s it had quite a good rep but these days it is a mill, and certainly one for the funny talkers.
As far as quality of training , I don’t think so. Do you want to go to a school that charges you for tons of ground instruction that you can read and learn your self? Where to 150 hour instructors where applet’s, black trousers and white shirts ( what do they think they flying some s76 in NYC?)? Where you get charged flight time when you are in the helicopter waiting for your instructor who is yacking it up, and still charging you for post and preflights when he blows you off to rush for the next student so he/she can get another .8? Where you only get in the aircraft when you fight to get on the schedule because there are way to many students vs. a/c.
As a national or even some one with a J1 who wants to work as an instructor in the here why would you train in a H300? Besides HAI there are maybe 2 schools that are busy with 300’s , 95 percent of the flight training in the US is done in R22. Due to the sfar and insurance if you don’t train in the r22 , it is highly unlikely you will find a job in one. Most of the other non flight training entry level work is also done in the r22 (photo/rides/patrols/etc).
Now the J1. I agree , why don’t these people do a search here (I am not going to provide the link) but this was discussed late last year. Most people here already know how I feel about that one. I pointed out the frequent abuse it has gotten , especially from the HAI students. Now this M1 J1 thing, sounds a little grey areaish. The intent is to beat the system. Don’t worry the Mighty TSA will eventually catch on.
HAI has a great deal going. They have a pile of students they charge the most expensive flight training , that come over from across the pond. They get there J1, study for a year, then they hire them at a super low wage because they know they only have 1 year to get some experience. Almost all of these students come over budgeted for the 2 years, so working for survival wage is not a factor. This just kills the local guy who is trying to pay rent, car insurance and grocery’s.
Oh and working for pennies, better get used to it. My as well get started washing helicopters. Look at it from this point of view. You are going to hire an instructor, who are you going to hire? The guy scrubbing and sweeping, who has shown interest, worth ethic and commitment to you and his career or the guy who thinks his 200 hours and 50k worth of lic in his pocket are going get him a job? Hmm that’s a tough one. That’s how I got my start, washing that is….
As far as the blind leading the blind instructing , that is just the way it is over here. It realy isnt that bad of a thing, it teaches you AWARENESS, lets you loose weight due to stress and little sleep for the first couple of months , and it makes you sharp. I know a lot of operators who will hire a 1000hr robby instrucotr over an ex military or 300 guy any day. It shows, you have a little finess and understand the concept of POWER Managment.. R22 guys get in a Jet Box or a Astar and tend to fly the pants out of it. Thats how I started and I have ended up ok (some will debate that with you). Alot of that is insurance and customer driven, wether a 500hr guy can due the same job any different than the 1000hr guy is a whole diferent thread.
I would love to see a statistic on how many students at HAI actually go on to become career pilots, or give up after awhile… Flying Squirrel didn’t want to take my bet…!
I love this one:
“By it's very nature the industry has changed to accommodate integrated courses. So many people take that route, and (against all odds apparently..) go on to successful careers. Are all these negative attitudes simply a matter of "if it's not as difficult for you as it was for me, then it's not good enough"?"
Do you really think your going to finish and get a flight instruction job and a career? I don’t see that attitude at all, especially here on Rotorheads. Be ready for tough times, sacrifice and heartache. That’s just the realitly of it.
Ok that’s enough ranting; I need to finish my beer.
Hey Chairman, What’s an Ozzy’s favorite sight in Sydney?
A Kiwi swimming out of Botany Bay with a Pome under each arm.
Rotorboy
As far as quality of training , I don’t think so. Do you want to go to a school that charges you for tons of ground instruction that you can read and learn your self? Where to 150 hour instructors where applet’s, black trousers and white shirts ( what do they think they flying some s76 in NYC?)? Where you get charged flight time when you are in the helicopter waiting for your instructor who is yacking it up, and still charging you for post and preflights when he blows you off to rush for the next student so he/she can get another .8? Where you only get in the aircraft when you fight to get on the schedule because there are way to many students vs. a/c.
As a national or even some one with a J1 who wants to work as an instructor in the here why would you train in a H300? Besides HAI there are maybe 2 schools that are busy with 300’s , 95 percent of the flight training in the US is done in R22. Due to the sfar and insurance if you don’t train in the r22 , it is highly unlikely you will find a job in one. Most of the other non flight training entry level work is also done in the r22 (photo/rides/patrols/etc).
Now the J1. I agree , why don’t these people do a search here (I am not going to provide the link) but this was discussed late last year. Most people here already know how I feel about that one. I pointed out the frequent abuse it has gotten , especially from the HAI students. Now this M1 J1 thing, sounds a little grey areaish. The intent is to beat the system. Don’t worry the Mighty TSA will eventually catch on.
HAI has a great deal going. They have a pile of students they charge the most expensive flight training , that come over from across the pond. They get there J1, study for a year, then they hire them at a super low wage because they know they only have 1 year to get some experience. Almost all of these students come over budgeted for the 2 years, so working for survival wage is not a factor. This just kills the local guy who is trying to pay rent, car insurance and grocery’s.
Oh and working for pennies, better get used to it. My as well get started washing helicopters. Look at it from this point of view. You are going to hire an instructor, who are you going to hire? The guy scrubbing and sweeping, who has shown interest, worth ethic and commitment to you and his career or the guy who thinks his 200 hours and 50k worth of lic in his pocket are going get him a job? Hmm that’s a tough one. That’s how I got my start, washing that is….
As far as the blind leading the blind instructing , that is just the way it is over here. It realy isnt that bad of a thing, it teaches you AWARENESS, lets you loose weight due to stress and little sleep for the first couple of months , and it makes you sharp. I know a lot of operators who will hire a 1000hr robby instrucotr over an ex military or 300 guy any day. It shows, you have a little finess and understand the concept of POWER Managment.. R22 guys get in a Jet Box or a Astar and tend to fly the pants out of it. Thats how I started and I have ended up ok (some will debate that with you). Alot of that is insurance and customer driven, wether a 500hr guy can due the same job any different than the 1000hr guy is a whole diferent thread.
I would love to see a statistic on how many students at HAI actually go on to become career pilots, or give up after awhile… Flying Squirrel didn’t want to take my bet…!
I love this one:
“By it's very nature the industry has changed to accommodate integrated courses. So many people take that route, and (against all odds apparently..) go on to successful careers. Are all these negative attitudes simply a matter of "if it's not as difficult for you as it was for me, then it's not good enough"?"
Do you really think your going to finish and get a flight instruction job and a career? I don’t see that attitude at all, especially here on Rotorheads. Be ready for tough times, sacrifice and heartache. That’s just the realitly of it.
Ok that’s enough ranting; I need to finish my beer.
Hey Chairman, What’s an Ozzy’s favorite sight in Sydney?
A Kiwi swimming out of Botany Bay with a Pome under each arm.
Rotorboy
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Counter-rant - YOU WERE LUCKY
"When I was a lad, we used to have to get up at 4 o'clock, 2 hours before we went to bed. Rub sticks together to start t' fire for t' kettle. Then we had to put t' helicopter together with out any tools. After that we had to wash helicopter clean, licking t' grease off with our tongues. To finish off, we had to de-ice t' blades with the warmth from under our armpits, push helicopter out onto t' ramp (no wheels). You were lucky!"
Ha! You two sound like the two old grumpy men from the Muppets! Well at least they were funny in their grumpiness.
Guys, get a life! I strongly suggest you go and read the words of Bob Dylan's 'The Times, They are A-Changing'...because they have!
Don't go blaming the wanabees for the situation today. It's called 'Supply and Demand'. You should be complaining to the CAA for making the UK training so unbelievably over-the-top, so that people go to the US to get a more practical helicopter rating and not one which is designed for jet traffic over the Atlantic. And while you're at the CAA, ask them why the Airspace is so restrictive for GA. Next go to the government and complain about the price of fuel. After that, take a trip down to the stock exchange (if it hasn't been sold to the Germans!) and complain about the price of the US dollar compared to the rest of the world. Lastly, complain to the employers in the helicopter industry, for not paying more for flight instructors, thus attracting more experienced pilots.
BUT don't blame the new pilots for the state of the industry today. Blame those that shaped the industry to what it is...the old timers!
ChairmanoftheBoard, I see you're from Oz...reason why I didn't go there...Less than a 1000 registered helicopters and over 3000 certified pilots!
SUPPLY and DEMAND!
As I said, times have changed. I cannot blame a pilot-to-be, for doing whatever he / she can to get the foot in the door. You guys need to see that and either get over it, do something about it or move on.
As for HAI, well it is not surprising that HAI will get the Lion's share of moans and gripes...that's because it is the Lion. Makes it easy to have a dig at it...doesn’t it.
Actually, most people who have a gripe with HAI do so for the same reasons....
a) They weren't the hotshot that they thought they were, and so took longer to get through the course than they budgeted for.
b) They weren't the hotshot that they thought they were, and so didn't get hired on like they were so sure they would.
c) Were generally the sort of whingers and moaners...the sort of people that wouldn't be good on a team, and so didn't get hired on like they were so sure they would.
d) Need someone to blame that doesn’t include themselves!
Most other people are generally happy with the place.
Hmmm...rotorboy, I see you seem to know so much about the place...what's your story? Let me guess…the grapes were sour anyway?
Chairman of the BOARD, you said "Get off your arse and find out about the visa requirements"
What do you think the guy who asked was doing...yes, he was getting off is arse and trying to 'find out' about the visa requirements! If you're not going to help him than don't bother posting.
When I first came to this list...I thought, “Great, a place I can 'find out' about things.” Isn't that what it’s for? Or is it just for grumpy old men to have cheap digs at the newbies?
When I first came to this list...I didn't know that there was a search function that actually worked well. (You have to agree most web page search functions are rubbish.) So what do you do, you boldly step out from the dark and post. There's nothing wrong with that, eh?
Now then boys, before I sign off, let me just say that I really thought your posts were very high quality rants. No real substance, no good ideas...all the qualities of a good rant 'n' rave. Really gave the impression that you have a chip (or fry) on your shoulder about something. Well done!
Regards,
cl12pv2s
Ha! You two sound like the two old grumpy men from the Muppets! Well at least they were funny in their grumpiness.
Guys, get a life! I strongly suggest you go and read the words of Bob Dylan's 'The Times, They are A-Changing'...because they have!
Don't go blaming the wanabees for the situation today. It's called 'Supply and Demand'. You should be complaining to the CAA for making the UK training so unbelievably over-the-top, so that people go to the US to get a more practical helicopter rating and not one which is designed for jet traffic over the Atlantic. And while you're at the CAA, ask them why the Airspace is so restrictive for GA. Next go to the government and complain about the price of fuel. After that, take a trip down to the stock exchange (if it hasn't been sold to the Germans!) and complain about the price of the US dollar compared to the rest of the world. Lastly, complain to the employers in the helicopter industry, for not paying more for flight instructors, thus attracting more experienced pilots.
BUT don't blame the new pilots for the state of the industry today. Blame those that shaped the industry to what it is...the old timers!
ChairmanoftheBoard, I see you're from Oz...reason why I didn't go there...Less than a 1000 registered helicopters and over 3000 certified pilots!
SUPPLY and DEMAND!
As I said, times have changed. I cannot blame a pilot-to-be, for doing whatever he / she can to get the foot in the door. You guys need to see that and either get over it, do something about it or move on.
As for HAI, well it is not surprising that HAI will get the Lion's share of moans and gripes...that's because it is the Lion. Makes it easy to have a dig at it...doesn’t it.
Actually, most people who have a gripe with HAI do so for the same reasons....
a) They weren't the hotshot that they thought they were, and so took longer to get through the course than they budgeted for.
b) They weren't the hotshot that they thought they were, and so didn't get hired on like they were so sure they would.
c) Were generally the sort of whingers and moaners...the sort of people that wouldn't be good on a team, and so didn't get hired on like they were so sure they would.
d) Need someone to blame that doesn’t include themselves!
Most other people are generally happy with the place.
Hmmm...rotorboy, I see you seem to know so much about the place...what's your story? Let me guess…the grapes were sour anyway?
Chairman of the BOARD, you said "Get off your arse and find out about the visa requirements"
What do you think the guy who asked was doing...yes, he was getting off is arse and trying to 'find out' about the visa requirements! If you're not going to help him than don't bother posting.
When I first came to this list...I thought, “Great, a place I can 'find out' about things.” Isn't that what it’s for? Or is it just for grumpy old men to have cheap digs at the newbies?
When I first came to this list...I didn't know that there was a search function that actually worked well. (You have to agree most web page search functions are rubbish.) So what do you do, you boldly step out from the dark and post. There's nothing wrong with that, eh?
Now then boys, before I sign off, let me just say that I really thought your posts were very high quality rants. No real substance, no good ideas...all the qualities of a good rant 'n' rave. Really gave the impression that you have a chip (or fry) on your shoulder about something. Well done!
Regards,
cl12pv2s
Last edited by cl12pv2s; 7th Mar 2005 at 05:12.
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Folks,
Just another insight....
At CHC in Ireland there are 11 ex HAI grads. Around Europe there are many more at both the big and smaller operators. I think something like 1 in 3 pilots at Norsk are ex HAI. Go to sim training in Stavanger and if you look around the hotel dining room at breakfast you are nearly always gonna run into an old student or someone you knew from the states. And no I'm not making that up.
Its true that not everyone makes a career out of it, but its still true that for those that really stick at it that they more often than not come thru in the end. The best advice I ever got was from my flight examiner was to keep making all the sacrifices till I had every rating I wanted... ie FAA ATP, JAA ATP AND any of the types I needed. I got some good breaks but lots who didnt have done well too.
The industry has followed the same cycles since the sixties...it has changed very little. On a brighter note for us Europeans is that some of the military parapublic work has gone civil..eg all the Irish Coastguard contracts, the HM Coastguard contracts. This is likely to continue accross Europe. Thanks to the boom of the late nineties here in Ireland the number of corporate/private machines is now well over 100.
HAI never promises anything more than good training. Its a big school and like all big companies it has its issues. The good news is that many of those same issues remain throughout your career. Go to a big company and see how you get jerked around trying to get online due to availablity of instructors, aircraft etc. I know its not exactly the same situation but the reasons are. I worked at a small school... one that promised the world and believe me the issues were still the same... but the bu****** was often ten times worse.
If you read thru the HAI website, the info. on careers and pay is very accurate. The system of low time instructors is debated all the time but it works and always has. Many of the ex mil pilots are instructed by low timers too but because its on 206's or 500's we all seem to think its much better.
And as far as the BS form old timers... get used to it. You'll be hearing war stories from tossers when you hit the 20'00 hr mark..or so I'm told.
Just another insight....
At CHC in Ireland there are 11 ex HAI grads. Around Europe there are many more at both the big and smaller operators. I think something like 1 in 3 pilots at Norsk are ex HAI. Go to sim training in Stavanger and if you look around the hotel dining room at breakfast you are nearly always gonna run into an old student or someone you knew from the states. And no I'm not making that up.
Its true that not everyone makes a career out of it, but its still true that for those that really stick at it that they more often than not come thru in the end. The best advice I ever got was from my flight examiner was to keep making all the sacrifices till I had every rating I wanted... ie FAA ATP, JAA ATP AND any of the types I needed. I got some good breaks but lots who didnt have done well too.
The industry has followed the same cycles since the sixties...it has changed very little. On a brighter note for us Europeans is that some of the military parapublic work has gone civil..eg all the Irish Coastguard contracts, the HM Coastguard contracts. This is likely to continue accross Europe. Thanks to the boom of the late nineties here in Ireland the number of corporate/private machines is now well over 100.
HAI never promises anything more than good training. Its a big school and like all big companies it has its issues. The good news is that many of those same issues remain throughout your career. Go to a big company and see how you get jerked around trying to get online due to availablity of instructors, aircraft etc. I know its not exactly the same situation but the reasons are. I worked at a small school... one that promised the world and believe me the issues were still the same... but the bu****** was often ten times worse.
If you read thru the HAI website, the info. on careers and pay is very accurate. The system of low time instructors is debated all the time but it works and always has. Many of the ex mil pilots are instructed by low timers too but because its on 206's or 500's we all seem to think its much better.
And as far as the BS form old timers... get used to it. You'll be hearing war stories from tossers when you hit the 20'00 hr mark..or so I'm told.
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Nope no sour grapes here, just dont like how some of these schools steal money from students and the image they give the industry.
HAI had a very good rep for a long time but seems to have been down a raod driven by money.
TIMES HAVE CHANGED:
There is heaps of work if you have 2000 plus hours, utility back ground , etc or want to fly ems. It most deffenitly has not changed for the 200 hour wonder. I dont mean to sound bitter, I am deffenitly not, these guys just dont have a clue of what they are in for.... It doesnt help that many of these schools paint a rosy picture either.. The only thing I balme wannabe for is not doing suffient homework and being naieve.... I did my home work ( its been a couple of years) and fully knew what to expect... From reading these post , it is obivous they dont....
Before you thrash me, mayby they should hit the search function.
FYI all training done in r22, priate at 50hr, instrument at 100, cpl and cfi at 150, ..... wasnt a hot shot, just determned to make it work and serious about my career. Found a job before I finished and have never not had work.
RB
HAI had a very good rep for a long time but seems to have been down a raod driven by money.
TIMES HAVE CHANGED:
There is heaps of work if you have 2000 plus hours, utility back ground , etc or want to fly ems. It most deffenitly has not changed for the 200 hour wonder. I dont mean to sound bitter, I am deffenitly not, these guys just dont have a clue of what they are in for.... It doesnt help that many of these schools paint a rosy picture either.. The only thing I balme wannabe for is not doing suffient homework and being naieve.... I did my home work ( its been a couple of years) and fully knew what to expect... From reading these post , it is obivous they dont....
Before you thrash me, mayby they should hit the search function.
FYI all training done in r22, priate at 50hr, instrument at 100, cpl and cfi at 150, ..... wasnt a hot shot, just determned to make it work and serious about my career. Found a job before I finished and have never not had work.
RB
Last edited by rotorboy; 7th Mar 2005 at 11:35.
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Eh sorry but I disagree. Times have not changed. Some of the older civvie guys I have worked with will tell you the exact same story for the eighties and nineties. When I was at HAI I remeber the C.P. saying that the first job was the easiest but the first turbine was the hardest. Needless to say I was gutted. Suffice to say he has long since gone on to bigger and better things.
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Agree to disagree.
If you have a 1000 hrs and a heart beat at the moment there is the gulf ( begging for guys), tours in Veags, the Ditch and AK (begging too), getting turbine time these days is easy.
RB
If you have a 1000 hrs and a heart beat at the moment there is the gulf ( begging for guys), tours in Veags, the Ditch and AK (begging too), getting turbine time these days is easy.
RB
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Do you really think your going to finish and get a flight instruction job and a career? I don’t see that attitude at all, especially here on Rotorheads. Be ready for tough times, sacrifice and heartache. That’s just the realitly of it.
I'm well aware of the difficulties. But, J1 is still my best option. I could do my training in the UK and then hope to find an instructing position (after making up the 150 hour shortfall before doing the CFI of course - another £30k) or I could budget to be able to live without work cheaper in the US and hope to find a position in a much larger industry.
I'm under no illusions about the sacrifices I'm making either. I'm funding my training using equity from my house, enough to get me through CFI and IR if need be. And yes, I will probably still struggle afterwards. But then I'll be in the same boat had I gone a different route.
I think that many of the "old timers" have an unnecessarily dim view of wannabes' expectations because they don't believe we'd willingly go into this with our eyes open, and that we must be the poor victims of someone's rose-tinted advertising campaign. But for those of us who desperately want to do it, yes we are! I've spent 8 months researching, talking to people, reading hear, scouring the net. I know how difficult it may very well be. And I *still* want to do it, one way or the other.
So, my choice comes down to this:
Train in the UK to CPL at cost of £45k. Build 150 hours, cost of £35k, do CFI £9k, try and get a job, plus IR at £30k. *Hopefully* I might be able to get an instructing job while pounding the North Sea with resumes. That's a £119k outlay.
Or, take advantage of the J1, if only for the cheaper costs:
JAA+FAA CPL+CFI at £32k, CFII £5k. Hour build while looking for work within the second year before doing a JAA CFI, worst case 150 hours paid with no return: £15k, JAA CFI £5k. Total £57k.
Am I really naive to want to go to the US to do it? And the reality of job shortages are the same no matter how I choose to go about it.
Si
I missed out the IR from the US options, adding £5k (all prices from memory), but it's still financially the best option.
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Hello,
Well I think we are all agreed that the road is long and hard!
Rotorboy, I agree with you that many students are maybe a little naive about the challenge the industry faces. However, most students are not. Most of them do a great deal of research into their school selection and for whatever reasons make their decision.
Logically, if this is where they 'start' their research (as most do), then they are of course going to sound naiive! They have to start somewhere!
I don’t think the flight schools are as malicious as you seem to think they are. A business is a business. The business is trying to take the student’s money, and is in competition with other businesses. Anyone who thinks that the flight school is going to be their best friend really hasn’t got a handle on reality. I can’t see how you can accuse a flight school of ‘steeling’ someone’s money. A flight school thinks of number 1, as should the student.
That’s the harsh reality of life. If you are naive to that fact, than you’ll loose out. It is the same in any industry. So how can you blame the flight school.
Also, I don’t think it is any coincidence that most foreign students arrive at the same decision…HAI. This school is simply filling a gap in the market. There are no underhand marketing tactics or false promises. As I said previously, it’s a case of supply and demand…and the school that meets that demand will get the business.
Rotorboy, your comment is only true for those with the right to live and work in the US. For the foreign student, it is still (and always will be) a challenge to land that first job.
My advice to anyone on or starting a J1 is start preparing early. What are you going to do when that J1 visa expires? So start getting visa applications in early. Get yourself married to an American early. Enrol to a JAA ground school early. Muscle your way onto the company turbine aircraft early. Do whatever you need to do, but do it early.
This is where I see most people drop out. The 2 years on the J1 visa flies by, and suddenly they are stuck…faced with maybe a year of no flying while they take exams and look for jobs.
Personally, it is none of my business or care, the path someone takes to get ahead. If I could then I would. If I started at the same time as someone else, and he got ahead by a different route, then so be it! I don’t see why you are so personally aggrieved by these guys wanting to go over on the J1 to HAI. As Decks says, there are a great number of HAI grads working the European industry. If the name helps (and I can assure you it does) then why not use it. As we all know, jobs are about a little luck and ‘who you know’.
Lastly, why are you so personally put out by people not searching? I worry about people being killed in wars or tsunamis, that sort of thing. Not because some guy didn’t use a search. If I feel moved I will either answer the question again, point the newbie in the direction of the search function, or ignore the post…let someone else deal with it. But I don’t take it personally at all!
Cl12pv2s
Well I think we are all agreed that the road is long and hard!
Rotorboy, I agree with you that many students are maybe a little naive about the challenge the industry faces. However, most students are not. Most of them do a great deal of research into their school selection and for whatever reasons make their decision.
Logically, if this is where they 'start' their research (as most do), then they are of course going to sound naiive! They have to start somewhere!
I don’t think the flight schools are as malicious as you seem to think they are. A business is a business. The business is trying to take the student’s money, and is in competition with other businesses. Anyone who thinks that the flight school is going to be their best friend really hasn’t got a handle on reality. I can’t see how you can accuse a flight school of ‘steeling’ someone’s money. A flight school thinks of number 1, as should the student.
That’s the harsh reality of life. If you are naive to that fact, than you’ll loose out. It is the same in any industry. So how can you blame the flight school.
Also, I don’t think it is any coincidence that most foreign students arrive at the same decision…HAI. This school is simply filling a gap in the market. There are no underhand marketing tactics or false promises. As I said previously, it’s a case of supply and demand…and the school that meets that demand will get the business.
If you have a 1000 hrs and a heart beat at the moment there is the gulf ( begging for guys), tours in Veags, the Ditch and AK (begging too), getting turbine time these days is easy.
My advice to anyone on or starting a J1 is start preparing early. What are you going to do when that J1 visa expires? So start getting visa applications in early. Get yourself married to an American early. Enrol to a JAA ground school early. Muscle your way onto the company turbine aircraft early. Do whatever you need to do, but do it early.
This is where I see most people drop out. The 2 years on the J1 visa flies by, and suddenly they are stuck…faced with maybe a year of no flying while they take exams and look for jobs.
Personally, it is none of my business or care, the path someone takes to get ahead. If I could then I would. If I started at the same time as someone else, and he got ahead by a different route, then so be it! I don’t see why you are so personally aggrieved by these guys wanting to go over on the J1 to HAI. As Decks says, there are a great number of HAI grads working the European industry. If the name helps (and I can assure you it does) then why not use it. As we all know, jobs are about a little luck and ‘who you know’.
I agree , why don’t these people do a search here (I am not going to provide the link) but this was discussed late last year. Most people here already know how I feel about that one.
Cl12pv2s
Last edited by cl12pv2s; 8th Mar 2005 at 11:43.
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Although about a third of the people at these "factory" schools are there on daddy's money
Actually my parents are really supportive of my decision, though they are naturally concerned that I'm selling my house to pay for it. As it happens they did look into trying to release some equity in lieu of inheritence to help me out, but the Gypo camp next to their house rendered the place unvaluable... still it's good to have their support. And if it comes to it they'll provide me with somewhere to live afterwards while I'm washing helicopters for pennies..
Si
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Simon
Just a quick thought..
You mentioned in one of your posts that you only have two options, either go to HAI, or stay in the UK. The Uk is expensive, and has little scope for work, but HAI is cheaper, and has little scope for work.
There are ,of course, other places where it is relatively cheap to train, and where there is a very good chance of some commercial work to help you get a foot on the ladder.
It is always difficult to get that first job, but I think with a bit more research you will find there are more options than the USA J1, or UK route.
Just a quick thought..
You mentioned in one of your posts that you only have two options, either go to HAI, or stay in the UK. The Uk is expensive, and has little scope for work, but HAI is cheaper, and has little scope for work.
There are ,of course, other places where it is relatively cheap to train, and where there is a very good chance of some commercial work to help you get a foot on the ladder.
It is always difficult to get that first job, but I think with a bit more research you will find there are more options than the USA J1, or UK route.