Negativity in the industry
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Negativity in the industry
As a student I have noticed that there is a lot more negativity in the aviation industry compared to other sectors. Has it always been like this? Or has it been influenced by factors such as worsening T&Cs?
The worrying bit is that I've only got my PPL and I'm already receiving negative comments regarding becoming an airline pilot etc. Do you get this a lot on the flight deck as well?
Cheers
The worrying bit is that I've only got my PPL and I'm already receiving negative comments regarding becoming an airline pilot etc. Do you get this a lot on the flight deck as well?
Cheers
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There is negativity from airline guys who always think the grass is greener, but this is just the nature of this job and its something you have to deal with.
There is also just as much negativity at the bottom level with instructors who didn't make it and still have a chip on their shoulder which transfers to their students. I would say that is much more common.
Either which way your always going to run into negativity, either on here or in the air, this job is full of resentment. Either from older guys who don't like young guys flying jets when they was at the same age they can remember what they was doing, or guys who never made it all who of course will have bitterness and advise you its impossible.
Its up to you to remain focused and try and blank it out if your really keen about the job.
There is also just as much negativity at the bottom level with instructors who didn't make it and still have a chip on their shoulder which transfers to their students. I would say that is much more common.
Either which way your always going to run into negativity, either on here or in the air, this job is full of resentment. Either from older guys who don't like young guys flying jets when they was at the same age they can remember what they was doing, or guys who never made it all who of course will have bitterness and advise you its impossible.
Its up to you to remain focused and try and blank it out if your really keen about the job.
negativity:
No.
Yes.
There may be resentment, but I've never heard resentment being expressed about other aviators.... At the end of the day once on the flight deck most people I know do their best to make the most of their day at work.
Has it always been like this?
has it been influenced by factors such as worsening T&Cs?
There may be resentment, but I've never heard resentment being expressed about other aviators.... At the end of the day once on the flight deck most people I know do their best to make the most of their day at work.
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Exactly, but I think at the level the original poster is at I think he is feeling negativity from instructors or suchlike, at that level there is a lot of sour grapes/bitterness. It then changes when you get into the airlines, but then the talk is surrounding better companies etc.
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Several years ago a girlfriend came up with a collective noun for a group of pilots, she called it a "whinge". In many ways she is right. But the reality is, most people moan at work (My wife though is an exception, she moans at home.). Part of that moaning comes from having to deal with the pointless niffnaff and trivia that is part of our job. Let's start: RVSM checks on an electronic aircraft. Why? ATC having the uncanny ability to spot when you are late or early and assigning you a speed opposite to the one you want. Having to pass through the pointless theatre of security (as applied in most airports) only to be given a your own manned missile.
Yet the above are the minor points. As we have become wealthier, the relative cost of learning to fly has reduced. This has resulted in there being more pilots than jobs available. This in turn has reduced our T's & C's to a point whereby no pilot I know would recommend this industry to their children. What sort of industry is that?
I'm not a big moaner. I enjoy my days at work but know it won't last forever, I'll be retiring shortly. And when I do, I'll not fly. I do not want to queue, be abused by security gestapo, pay a fortune for parking, be treated like an idiot during boarding or on a plane and when I arrive be surrounded by my own countrymen who do not know what knives and forks are let alone common courtesy.
As for a being a possible new entrant, you do have to ask yourself, are you going to make it? You will be spending a fortune to get a bits of paper. Will you earn enough to live and eat in the first few years and service your loans? Do you have a family to support she doing so? Lastly, will you enjoy the job?
Yet the above are the minor points. As we have become wealthier, the relative cost of learning to fly has reduced. This has resulted in there being more pilots than jobs available. This in turn has reduced our T's & C's to a point whereby no pilot I know would recommend this industry to their children. What sort of industry is that?
I'm not a big moaner. I enjoy my days at work but know it won't last forever, I'll be retiring shortly. And when I do, I'll not fly. I do not want to queue, be abused by security gestapo, pay a fortune for parking, be treated like an idiot during boarding or on a plane and when I arrive be surrounded by my own countrymen who do not know what knives and forks are let alone common courtesy.
As for a being a possible new entrant, you do have to ask yourself, are you going to make it? You will be spending a fortune to get a bits of paper. Will you earn enough to live and eat in the first few years and service your loans? Do you have a family to support she doing so? Lastly, will you enjoy the job?
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Good post, PM.
Some of us were lucky enough to have the basics paid for by Her Maj, so I have nothing but respect for people who go it alone and shell out money every day not knowing where it will all end.
If you have the money in the bank to do your own training, you have to ask whether that money would have been better used in starting a business, then flying for pleasure.
It is true that flying has suffered from the tick box mentality over recent years, and that has taken a lot of the fun out of it.
But is being an airline pilot what you want? The most fun I ever had was firefighting.
Some of us were lucky enough to have the basics paid for by Her Maj, so I have nothing but respect for people who go it alone and shell out money every day not knowing where it will all end.
If you have the money in the bank to do your own training, you have to ask whether that money would have been better used in starting a business, then flying for pleasure.
It is true that flying has suffered from the tick box mentality over recent years, and that has taken a lot of the fun out of it.
But is being an airline pilot what you want? The most fun I ever had was firefighting.
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The thing is, when compared to the vast majority of other jobs, being a pilot still comes out quite high in terms of overall job satisfaction and salary (it's still one of the top 5 highest paying jobs in the UK ... that can't be ignored surely). On paper, it is not that bad at all. Pilots are not exactly on the breadline.
Yes what about being a doctor, lawyer, setting up a business with the cash for flight training etc ... the thing is that for me at least - I have no interest whatsoever in anything else other than aviation. It is a passion, what better than to work in the field you are passionate about?
Could it be that you are comparing it to when you first started out? Things of course are not like they were back then, but the same could be said for many professions.
But is being an airline pilot what you want? The most fun I ever had was firefighting.
(it's still one of the top 5 highest paying jobs in the UK ... that can't be ignored surely).
https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...hours-earnings
To obtain the data, the ONS surveyed a random sample of 1% of all the workers who carry out each occupation, using 2015/2016 pay-as-you-earn (PAYE) tax records.
This means bonuses are included, but self-employed workers and celebrities who don’t appear on company payrolls are excluded. Information about niche occupations – for example, salaried professional footballers or TV presenters – has also been suppressed by the ONS to avoid identifying individual pay packets.
This means bonuses are included, but self-employed workers and celebrities who don’t appear on company payrolls are excluded. Information about niche occupations – for example, salaried professional footballers or TV presenters – has also been suppressed by the ONS to avoid identifying individual pay packets.
I'm not pleading poverty - It's fair to say the pay is still good at some operators, but the mean value often quoted in surveys, whilst mathematically perhaps correct, gives an incorrect impresion of general pay because it is skewed by those on the top end of the legacy payscales at some legacy airlines who maybe joined the industry two or three decades ago....what a newbie needs to ask themselves is will those top end pay points still be around in > 20 years......?
Last edited by wiggy; 16th May 2017 at 09:08.
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Devil is in the detail with that sort of claim - if you look at the fine print to the sort of surveys that claim that we are in the top five ( they come round in the likes of the Guardian every year) you'll often see we are in the top five of those in the workforce who are subject to PAYE.....that leaves a whole chunk of the UK workforce (e.g. all the self employed, not just high profile celebs ) out of the equation because they are renumerated at least in part by means outside PAYE.
I understand that, but you see the thing is I wouldn't want to open a business and become self employed, it just isn't my thing.
As for this industry I think the concern should be that CEOs are looking harder and harder at seniority pay and IMHO think there's going to be increasing pressure brought to bear for capping of payscales in the future, even in the legacy airlines...
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Our pay is not as great as people think. Even if we are in the top five PAYE jobs you have to ask how many of us are there at that position, possibly 2,000 in 65.1 million? The rest will be on less. Doctors, lawyers, plumbers, accountants, builders, etc. may well be on more. But if you only work for money, pity on you. We work for too great a proportion of our lives for us not to enjoy and get fulfillment from our lives at work.
The people who don't have much to moan about tend not to post so much in these sections.
For the record I am very happy having trained at the bottom of the cycle in 2010 and hopped loco/bizjets to Big Airline but having been lucky enough to be in the right place & time in the job market. I have done 5 years of short haul loco and bizjets flying and just over a year of long haul and very much enjoy my job. I like going to work although with a v young family the time away can be difficult.
If you want moans I am happy to give them over a beer (just look at "Living the Dream" on YouTube) but the wannabe section on PPRuNe does provide a bit of a negative view as many posters are unsatisfied job hunters and few come back to share their success as they probably don't want to be seen as boasting.
I am at the bottom of a legacy payscale with no training loan and am not at risk of a higher income tax bill from Jeremy Corbyn on my current basic but have few issues paying the mortgage and keeping the wife and baby in suitable style as the sole earner in the household.
For the record I am very happy having trained at the bottom of the cycle in 2010 and hopped loco/bizjets to Big Airline but having been lucky enough to be in the right place & time in the job market. I have done 5 years of short haul loco and bizjets flying and just over a year of long haul and very much enjoy my job. I like going to work although with a v young family the time away can be difficult.
If you want moans I am happy to give them over a beer (just look at "Living the Dream" on YouTube) but the wannabe section on PPRuNe does provide a bit of a negative view as many posters are unsatisfied job hunters and few come back to share their success as they probably don't want to be seen as boasting.
I am at the bottom of a legacy payscale with no training loan and am not at risk of a higher income tax bill from Jeremy Corbyn on my current basic but have few issues paying the mortgage and keeping the wife and baby in suitable style as the sole earner in the household.
