Taking the plunge - Worth the risk?

[PilotUnknown]

I know this has been talked about in part in different threads, however in this case I'm talking about stumping up most the cash in advanced rather then sponsorship or taking out huge loans.

I'd be grateful to hear back from people in all stages of their careers and training.

Knowing what you know now, and with the job market in the declining state it's in would you cough up your own cash to gain your (f)ATPL?

If you were young (26) and could sell your apartment to fund your training would you?

If you were lucky enough to gain enough inheritance to fund your training, would you go ahead with it?

---------My background to give you a better idea of why i'm asking ------

I'll give you a brief bit of my history. I'm now 26, it was always my dream to fly. I was originally planning on applying for sponsorship after completing my A-levels, however during my first year 9-11 happened. I've been in my backup carrer for 7 years now.

During my early years of work, and living at home with my mum I saved every penny to get up in the air. I loved it and although I wasn't earning much, enough for about one lesson every 3-4 weeks I still did it as much as possible, even cutting back massively in my social life.

I had to cut the PPL short when my family situation changed. (I was the air-law exam and one or two lessons away from going solo) .

Fast-forward 5 years, I now have a property (flat) which has enough equity (I'm looking at least £80k) in it to help me move in the the carrer of my dreams. However it's a massive commitment and one which shouldn't be taken lightly. I've worked very hard for what I have and don't want to blow it on some air time, a piece of paper and no job.

It wouldn't be so bad if I enjoyed my job, however the truth of the matter is I hate the career i'm in, and am looking for change!

------ end of background ------------

Thanks for your advice and input in advanced!

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

I stumped up all the cash myself to fund my ambition, and to be honest I have never looked back. My passion for aviation allows me to thoroughly enjoy going to work, which is very important to me.

I think a lot of the time life is a gamble, its all about making the right decisions. The decision you are faced with is a tough one. The way I look at it, is it is an investment in your future, which is something positive. The way the market is at the moment, it is difficult to give sound advice. However, it has always been up and down.

It would seem that from the money you have inherited you wont have the pressure on you, of having an large outstanding debt, that will take many years to pay off, which again is something positive.

I know it is a tough decision, but if you have that passion for aviation its a wonderful way to spend your time, flying for a living .

All the best.

[PilotUnknown]

Thanks for your reply CAT3C.

I've not actually inherited any money, however that is a small possibility in the future that I may.

The money for my apartment has all be through my hard work, and buying in the right place at the right time for a knock down price. (it was a buyers market, and the seller had recently got married and needed to sell fast).

I hate getting up every day and going to my job. I remember when I use to fly, I use to live for the weekends, loved getting up to the club house, and getting in the plane for a flight!

I was sitting at my desk at work today, looking at the grey overcast sky, writing up some boring report to try and win over some rich client. I was thinking: Wouldn't it be great if I was flying a plane, breaking through the clouds and seeing what a beautiful day it is up there!

It's a though decision and I have about another 6-12 months before I've cleared all my other debit and am left with just my mortgage which is still fairly large. But it still is and always has been my dream career and i'm finally in a position to go after it!

[Dekka]

I was 30 yo when i realised the truth in the phrase "you only live once". I too was tired of my position and future, although i was earning a comfortable wage and managed my own business it wasn't satisfying.

I borrowed against my property and used all available resources to finance a CPL MECIR and am now trudging through my ATPL subjects. I am also looking at my first paying gig!

I can tell that this is something that you have essentially already made your mind up about and are seeking a little reassurance that you are making the right decision. Well the truth is there is only 1 decision to make...and that is to do it!

I have borrowed to the hilt, stressed my wife to tears, doubted my ability and prospects of ever getting work, felt stupid, tired and overwhelmed....but it is absolutely worth it. Like you, I cannot accept the possibility of getting to 40 and telling my self "I wish i did it when i had the chance"

[captainsuperstorm]

not worth it anymore, maybe 20 years ago yes.

I tell you, you wont get any job, plenty of debts, and your life will be miserable.


see you soon in the unemployed line.

[Steve888]

stumping up most the cash in advanced

Never ever pay large sums of cash up front for flight training.

That being said, if you do have a stable job at the moment, perhaps look at taking long service/unpaid leave for 6-12 months to do your training. Then at least you can go back to work and start repaying the bills if you don't find a flying gig at the end of it.

Alternatively, learn to fly part time on the weekends, might save you selling your house.

A bit of a summary of where I am: I'm 22, started learning when I was 16. I now have a commercial license, instrument rating and instructor rating.

I also have a university degree in HR and am currently working as a contractor in the IT industry. My thinking is I'd rather work and be reasonably well paid for 6 months or so, then maybe travel around the country and call into operators looking for a job. If that doesn't yield anything, I can return to IT.

Where possible, avoid leaving work completely and getting large loans, you'll regret it in the long run.

[downwind24]

I did just that , loaned against equity on my house (albeit from parents with no interest) and am now just finishing the IR.

I too couldnt face the prospects of hitting 40 and not having tried !

I would also listen to your heart and of course your head as its a big gamble , i never waste my time reading some comments on here from the doom and gloom mongers you would never get anywhere !

Good Luck

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

not worth it anymore, maybe 20 years ago yes.

I tell you, you wont get any job, plenty of debts, and your life will be miserable.


see you soon in the unemployed line.

Firstly, you are welcome Pilot Unknown. Now with reference to the above quote.

This really makes me laugh. I have heard this so many times, from various people, some of the older guys at work, and some guys who have never even done the job.

Putting this in perspective, why do a lot of people seem to think that working long hours, and having to get off your ass to go to work is a bad thing? Isn't this the case for most jobs? Are we not supposed to go to work to earn money? Are you expecting to do this CAPT SS? I agree with you, it has changed, it is no longer the glamourous life style that it used to be 20 or 30 years ago, but why do we want to be pilots? Is it to fly aeroplanes for a living and enjoy it, or enjoy a lifestyle of doing very little, living it up in hotels and getting paid a load of dosh? If it is the latter, you are getting into the wrong industry!

The only thing I can compare it too is how I used to feel doing things that really made me unhappy in terms of work, however I did those things to put the building blocks in place to achieve the ambition of being a professional pilot.

With regard to working hours and working conditions, I cannot complain. Yes we have to do night shifts, yes we have to get up at 4am, yes we have to work 14 hour duties, doing Cairo and back. We also get to go to work, start at 5am, and finish at 10am. But this is the nature of the job. I like the fact, that even after a 14 hour duty, I can drive home and think what did I do today? Well, I flew an 89 ton aeroplane with 160 people on board to Cairo, made the approach over the pyramids, greased it on, then flew back again, made a flight through a gin clear night, with wonderful views of Greece, the east coast of Italy up the adriatic, across Venice, Paris, and finally flew over a brightly lit London to land at an airport I used to visit as a little boy dreaming of one day flying heavy jets out of, and knowing that dream has been achieved. I can't think of anything better personally. Oh, and the company gave me some pocket money for doing it, which lets me live a comfortable lifestyle.

I guess it all depends on what you want to get out of this guys. I have been flying a long time now, and with aviation in my blood I never get tired of it.

I wish all you guys striving for your first break the very best, as I know how it feels, however, when you do get your first jobs its brilliant!

Cheers.

[happyjack]

The answer to the question is very simple:
If you get a job and a career out of this game it is worth it.
If however you lose your home and never get airbourne again?????

Whether it goes one way or another is somewhat down to luck/ timing and good judgement.

Right now the chances are stacked against you. Whether that changes no-one knows. Try a fortune teller.

[PilotUnknown]

Thanks for all your replies.

Just to be clear when I said stumping up the cash in advanced! I should have worded that better. I meant using my own resources and not taking a loan out, and paying as I go.

I do have one advantage (disadvantage while training). I Live in the Channel Islands and have a full, unrestricted right to work across The Channel Islands. Due to my family roots I also have full rights to work in the UK & EU.

This should help me either get a locally based job with a regional or local airline. There are also a number of companies who have locally based aircraft to move freight / staff.
I'm hoping that will help me step on to the ladder.

Although it's appears to have died down at the moment, there was a small period of jobs going in the local paper for pilots with a local licence.

[bravobravoflyer]

Good luck with whatever you decide. I'm literally just about to 'take the plunge' and book onto the CPL/IR, I'm 24 and have always wanted to go down the commercial route but first I have gone down the uni route and worked for almost 2 years to contribute to the costs as well as taking out a career development loan.
Speaking for myself, I look at it like this- I have always wanted to be a commercial pilot and I will never be happy in a job until I at least try and get to where I want to be. The amount of money involved is unfathomable at times, however, my opinion is that you only live once and in life you tend to regret the things that you don't do!

[downwind24]

"If you're going to try, go all the way. Otherwise, don't even start. This could mean losing girlfriends, wives, relatives and maybe even your mind. It could mean not eating for three or four days. It could mean freezing on a park bench. It could mean jail. It could mean derision. It could mean mockery--isolation. Isolation is the gift. All the others are a test of your endurance, of how much you really want to do it. And, you'll do it, despite rejection and the worst odds. And it will be better than anything else you can imagine. If you're going to try, go all the way. There is no other feeling like that. You will be alone with the gods, and the nights will flame with fire. You will ride life straight to perfect laughter. It's the only good fight there is."
— Charles Bukowski

[The500man]

Don't sell your apartment. Pressumably you want to take the equity to pay for training and rent somwhere to live until you get a job flying?

Is there no way you could move out of your apartment and rent it to someone else (so they can pay off the rest of yoour mortgage), and then rent somewhere cheap enough to allow yourself to be able to pay for your training?

I'm 26 with a PPL and started ATPL distance learning just before Christmas. I don't own a property, but rent and pay for my training out of my salary as I go. I love flying and would be ok to never fly commercially if I couldn't find a decent job, though I do want to go as far as CPL IR atleast, if only for flying to/from where I want, when I want.

I can't help but think you're making a bad decision to sell up and reinvest the money in training for a job that you may never get. If you keep your current investment and pay for your training over a period of a few years, you may find jobs are easier to come by when you finish, and you won't have lost your capital, and be out of work during training paying over the odds on a gold-plated integrated course.

Think about what you'd do when you have your fATPL and no one is replying to your job applications? Would you rather be broke and trying to get your old job back, or would you rather still have your current job and be a few years behind (with an apartment investment)?

[Naval Aviator]

Don't swap the Devil for his witch! Considering everything going on in the world economic situation, the glut of pilots in the world (a lot of whom are military trained), the costs of civilian flight training and the poor job market I would not sell my apartment to raise money for a flying career. You may hate your job, but at least you still have a job! The old adage:"A bird in hand is worth more than 2 in the bush" is surely applicable.

US Naval Aviator

[Omlaaay]

I wouldn't sell your apartment, but that's just my view.

There are many unemployed, highly experienced pilots who have been looking for jobs for months, and not to put you down, but who are airline's going to hire? A first-timer with little experience or an experience jet pilot with 5000 hours?

Obviously, it's your life and if this is something you really want, then go for it. You'll never know unless you try, and you only live once.
It's a massive risk, and it could either go great or terrible. If you're prepared to take that risk, then go for it. But looking at your life now, if you're happy with what you're fortunate to have already, then why bother with the risk? If you're not, then there's nothing wrong with trying to make life better for yourself, as long as you do know what might happen if it does go belly up.

Have you thought about modular training, and taking it one step at a time so you don't have to sell your apartment and can still keep your current job just in case?

Good luck in whatever you decide to do!

[Airbus Girl]

Pilot Unknown. I don't understand, if you are so dedicated and so much want to fly for a career, why have you not completed your PPL? Why have you not already done your exams, or an instrument rating, or at least got some PPL and post-PPL hours under your belt? Why not start again, get your PPL done, book yourself in for your ground exams and medical, then make your decision.
You will know by then if it is the career for you.

[jpointer123]

There are many unemployed, highly experienced pilots who have been looking for jobs for months, and not to put you down, but who are airline's going to hire? A first-timer with little experience or an experience jet pilot with 5000 hours?

What about the hundreds of experienced pilots on this forum moaning that low hour cadets are taking their jobs? In the early stage of your career you are often favoured over someone with experience, as you are cheaper to employ and you can be moulded into the airline. There are many unemployed, experienced pilots out there. Why don't they have jobs then?

[captainsuperstorm]

I know guys who have been trained in 1996, 15 years later they still have no job.they went through P2F programs, fly for free,... they gave up, got married, children,...

it s not worth unless you have a contract with an airline, or you build your company. it was good 30 years ago in 1980, not these days anymore.

when I see what you get in return(low salary, hard work condition), no it s not worth...and this is if you are extremely lucky to find a flying job.

as you are cheaper to employ and you can be moulded into the airline

they are not cheaper, they are suckers...P2F, fly for free,...I call them the "parasites of the sky"

[Dekka]

I cant believe all the doom and gloom here..its ridiculous. Pilot Unknown...look elsewhere for inspiration...seems everyone here has a chip on their shoulder and cant appreciate how lucky they are. Try working your off for ten years working 16 hour days 6 days straight 50 weeks of the year...and i mean hard labor. This is my retirement and i'm gonna enjoy it. Pilot Unknown, you go girl!

[The500man]

Try working your off for ten years working 16 hour days 6 days straight 50 weeks of the year...

Fortunately this is no longer legal... In civilised countries!

Always plan for the worse, in case it actually happens. Having a fall-back option isn't a problem when the sun is shining.