Owing a GA aircraft query

[navygm]

Hi,

Anyone who owns a small aircraft can give me some information what is the average cost per year of keeping an aircraft? maintenance, registration etc..

Another query is, when the engine is due for a major overhaul, is it worth buying a new/refurbished one, or send it for overhaul?

small aircraft meaning - Cessna 172, 182 etc...

Thanks

[Colibri49]

Cessna 172, 182 etc... = expensive due to having to maintain it in what used to be called Private Category Certificate of Airworthiness, which means that most maintenance work needs to be performed by a licensed engineer.


If you look at the wide variety of aircraft operating in the UK under the LAA (Light Aircraft Association) permit or the BMAA (British Microlight Aircraft Association) permit, you should be pleasantly surprised at how much maintenance you can do yourself and thereby save costs. Whatever you else you might decide, don't be fooled by the EASA (European Aviation Safety Authority) permit which is hardly less onerous and expensive than the C of A.


A high percentage of permit types use the very reliable Rotax 912 series 4-stroke engines, which are designed to run on ordinary unleaded car fuel and can also use avgas which isn't recommended for ongoing use. Similarly there are many aircraft types using the fine Jabiru engines.


However if you're on a Mediterranean island, then I'm not at all sure whether the permit system is an option; unless the island is French, Spanish, Greek or Italian and falls under their equivalent systems.

[sharpend]

Well I own a SA Bulldog which is expensive to maintain. It cost me about £9000 per year. Yes, really. As for a new engine, I went for factory new rather than overhaul. Cheaper in the long run, for many reasons. A PA 28 is cheaper, but less fun.

[Maoraigh1]

As a Group of 6, paying £50 per month, and £60 per tach hour, but paying for landings separately, we make a good profit - enough to fund a major refurbishment, ongoing at present, after Mode S and 8.33 upgrades. Hopefully enough left for engine overhaul when that is needed.
Monthly covers hangarage, insurance, and other fixed costs.
Share is £2300. Jodel DR1050, O200 engine, LAA Permit.
(Group share is less than 1/6 the likely "sell" value of the aircraft + the kitty, as there can be liabilities in aircraft ownership.) (Hoping this doesn't attract Private Equity asset-stripper interest)

[3wheels]

Originally Posted by navygm

Hi,

small aircraft meaning - Cessna 172, 182 etc...

Thanks

10K per year, all in.

It is usual to " trade in" the old engine and you will receive a credit depending on its condition.

[Sam Rutherford]

You can't really answer this question without knowing how many hours it flies per year, and where.

[dont overfil]

Originally Posted by 3wheels

10K per year, all in.

It is usual to " trade in" the old engine and you will receive a credit depending on its condition.

For a Piper Archer, in the UK, 17 years ago it cost me £10000 per year plus fuel, putting nothing aside for the engine fund. (300 hrs per year and I paid no parking or hangar fees).

[ChickenHouse]

Originally Posted by navygm

Hi,

Anyone who owns a small aircraft can give me some information what is the average cost per year of keeping an aircraft? maintenance, registration etc..

Another query is, when the engine is due for a major overhaul, is it worth buying a new/refurbished one, or send it for overhaul?

small aircraft meaning - Cessna 172, 182 etc...

Thanks

That is a question provoking a very, very long discussion on how to define and measure "cost" of ownership ... as a remark, 172s and 182s will give total different pictures.

I do keep full TCO records of a bread'n butter O-300 172, so may share some real world numbers. The last 5 years we flew 698.32 hours and let drink 4,469.878 imperial gallons of fuel. We had total fixed expenses including purchase 70,807.08 GBP and variable costs 45,804.13 GBP. I could pull the categories from the pretty big sheet further if you are interested. Expenses total 116,611.21 GBP, or 166.99 GBP per flight hour = if we burn the aircraft today to value zero, or 147.06 GBP per flight hour if commercially calculated including depreciation. Attention here, you quickly notice that the purchase price of an old 172 is absolutely irrelevant - if you fly firm beyond the 100 hours per year, where usually ownership does start to make sense, you will spend about one typical purchase price of a 12/14V=pre-24/28V 172 each year for flying.

Engine due OH is a tricky one. If it is a late 24/28V four-pot Lyco-Saurus 172, you may have a chance to get a "new" engine, but no chance whatsoever for the old small sixpots 12/14V Conti-Rex - they are long out of production and i.e. TCM appears to try to slaughter the old small blocks by incredible expensive parts. As a consequence many owners think deeply on change of a worn out 145HP O-300 by to a 180HP Lyco, which you can still buy (for big bucks, 50-60k USD for the firewall forward conversion kit and ... plus labor ... and you'll still have the old small tanks). Even further, "factory new" engines are typically only "set-to-original-factory-specifications", which means they may contain used parts which are still within factory specs. Most people flying old engines prefer to send them in for OH, because they know their engine parts. Send in may take between 3 weeks to 4 month, depending on the shop and notice period, but usually it is worth it. So, if you are in a hurry you go the "send me a replacement engine" route, which may put you out of flying for two days, but you trade that for a totally unknown engine.

[piperboy84]

I own an aircraft, and I shudder to think how much it costs me. Many moons ago an old pilot gave me some advice as follows.

If it flies, floats or fcuks, RENT IT!!

[India Four Two]

I’ve been flying and sailing for over 40 years and during that time I’ve briefly owned a sailboard and a ⅓ share in a Scheibe L-Spatz. All my other flying and sailing has been in rented or borrowed craft, plus three spectacular years of UAS flying.

I’ve also scrounged time in other people’s boats or aircraft - I’m looking at you, pb84!

I’ve thought about owning but I could never justify the costs. There is something very satisfying about turning in the keys and walking away with no responsibilities.

[sharpend]

Originally Posted by piperboy84

I own an aircraft, and I shudder to think how much it costs me. Many moons ago an old pilot gave me some advice as follows.

If it flies, floats or fcuks, RENT IT!!

True, but would you share your wife? Don't answer that. The above advice is good, but if you have the loot, then buy an aeroplane. But it will cost. Just like a wife!

[Maoraigh1]

A Group owned LAA Permit aircraft on auto fuel is about 1/2 the cost per hour of a rented Tomahawk IF you fly 70+ or so hours per year. That's total costs, except landings.

[navygm]

I have read every single message you have sent here and thanks for that... So based on the info you all gave me let me explain more in detail my status as I didnt include any information..

I'm a Licenced B2 Avionics engineer ( working on airbus aircraft) but as in my free time I work on GA aircraft in a hangar with a mixture of Tecnams, C152s, C172s, C182s and more which come around.
I did my PPL and was thinking with my friend to evaluate what are the costs of buying a small aircraft for our hour building + IFR training, and occationally we go on holiday

My preference probably would be a Cessna due to the fact that I find them as a very robust aircraft which last very long! (basically I prefer a US built aircraft than european)
With all the respect to everyone in here, based on experience Tecnam are the least favourite, due to unreliability, cheap built quality and the Rotax engine which I prefer it switched OFF than ON
All of the maintenance I can do myself, except an engine overhaul which probably I cannot as we dont have a certified shop.
We may take the option to give our local school to rent it so maybe we cover some of the costs, but that all depends how much will it be used as I hate changing lots of pilot hands and they just dont keep it well mantained.

I live in Malta by the way...

[Forfoxake]

Originally Posted by navygm

I have read every single message you have sent here and thanks for that... So based on the info you all gave me let me explain more in detail my status as I didnt include any information..

I'm a Licenced B2 Avionics engineer ( working on airbus aircraft) but as in my free time I work on GA aircraft in a hangar with a mixture of Tecnams, C152s, C172s, C182s and more which come around.
I did my PPL and was thinking with my friend to evaluate what are the costs of buying a small aircraft for our hour building + IFR training, and occationally we go on holiday

My preference probably would be a Cessna due to the fact that I find them as a very robust aircraft which last very long! (basically I prefer a US built aircraft than european)
With all the respect to everyone in here, based on experience Tecnam are the least favourite, due to unreliability, cheap built quality and the Rotax engine which I prefer it switched OFF than ON
All of the maintenance I can do myself, except an engine overhaul which probably I cannot as we dont have a certified shop.
We may take the option to give our local school to rent it so maybe we cover some of the costs, but that all depends how much will it be used as I hate changing lots of pilot hands and they just dont keep it well mantained.

I live in Malta by the way...

I agree that Cessnas are very robust but I would not dream of owning one because in the UK nearly all maintenance needs to be done, or at least signed off, by expensive professionals. And the cost of an engine repair or overhaul can be eye-watering. That is why I own and operate a LAA permit aircraft. It costs me less than £60 per hour to operate (on unleaded petrol) and considerably less than that when I used to keep it in my garage at home (folding wings on a trailer). I average about 90 hours a year and have been as far as Switzerland (and back) from Scotland. It is not IFR equipped, although you can now fly IFR on certain permit aircraft in the UK.

If there is no equivalent of this in Malta and you can sign some off the maintenance/repair work yourself and get the rest signed off by a friendly licenced engineer, a Cessna 152/172 would certainly be worth considering but even then, I would consider forming a small group to share the costs. Otherwise, rent! The costs of a C182 will be colossal.

Finally, I cannot speak for the robustness of Tecnams but I cannot understand your comments about the Rotax engines. I have done almost 1600 hours on Rotax 912 series engines and they have literally never missed a best (touch wood!). Several people have flown round the world behind Rotax four-stroke engines, which is good enough for me.

The TBO is now as high as 2000 hours and I understand that they regularly make that even in the training environment without a top overhaul or any other major work. But do not take my word for it. In this month's LAA magazine, Chief Engineer Francis Donaldson states:

"Overall, unlike the preceding range of two-stroke aircraft engines, for practical purposes, it's fair to say that the reliability of the Rotax four-stroke range is perceived as being on a par with that of small Lycomings and Continentals.

Indeed, Rotax do make certified versions of these motors....."

[mikehallam]

I wondered if the above off/on criticism of the Rotax 900 carburetted engine refers to its spring ON throttle.

However on my Rans same engine (and a local Escapade) for example, one can easily reverse the butterfly spring holes & set it up to use conventional pull on,

mike hallam (England)

[n5296s]

I mentally added up everything I've spent on my TR182 over the 15 years I've owned it, and the answer is $350-400K - a LOT of money, and that in the US where many things (e.g. fuel) are a lot cheaper than in the UK. That includes a lot of non-routine stuff: fancy new interior, new paint, two major avionics upgrades (including ADS-B), engine overhaul. The latter was $25K for the engine itself, plus another $10-15K for removing and reinstalling it.

The total also includes all the running costs: fuel, insurance, tie-down, nav data, routine annuals (not that there is such a thing in reality), and no doubt other things I've forgotten.

It's a fairly complex aircraft by "small plane" standards, but not much of the cost is due to that. I had a turbo failure which cost about $10K.

[Forfoxake]

I should have stressed that the less than £60 per hour includes the fixed costs eg permit, hangarage and insurance and it would actually be nearer £50 per hour if I wasn't forced to spend thousands of pounds replacing a perfectly serviceable 25kHz radio (recently) and a Mode C transponder (soon).


The marginal costs of oil/fuel (unleaded petrol) are only about £16 per hour and I rarely pay landing fees because I mainly land in fields. However, bear in mind that unleaded petrol in the UK is more like $6 per US gallon and 100LL Avgas can be more than $10 per US gallon.

[navygm]

To start off with, flying on the island is not much fun... the fun starts when you leave the island goind to either Sicily, Pantelleria, Lampedusa and even far north of sicily onward to italy.

I dont really like Rotax mainly for how they work... when its started its like a farm trucktor working a field Even when you shut down, that stiff movement it does to stop, comparing to a sort of smooth stop of Cessna or other US made aircraft, makes me worry what stress is being created on the gearbox and clutch. But that could be my perseption, so I might be wrong, Im not an engine expert.

Most of the maintenance can be done by myself and a friend of mine, licenced mechanic so in those terms it might be slightly less expensive.

If in UK for a small aircraft the hourly rate is equivalent to 60pound/hr probably in Malta would be slightly cheaper then.

finally, I would like some aircraft models recommendations from you guys in here, also maybe aircraft equipped with Rotax as it seems its a cheap to run engine judging by the comments. Preferably would be a 4 seater aircraft...

[Forfoxake]

Originally Posted by navygm

To start off with, flying on the island is not much fun... the fun starts when you leave the island goind to either Sicily, Pantelleria, Lampedusa and even far north of sicily onward to italy.

I dont really like Rotax mainly for how they work... when its started its like a farm trucktor working a field Even when you shut down, that stiff movement it does to stop, comparing to a sort of smooth stop of Cessna or other US made aircraft, makes me worry what stress is being created on the gearbox and clutch. But that could be my perseption, so I might be wrong, Im not an engine expert.

Most of the maintenance can be done by myself and a friend of mine, licenced mechanic so in those terms it might be slightly less expensive.

If in UK for a small aircraft the hourly rate is equivalent to 60pound/hr probably in Malta would be slightly cheaper then.

finally, I would like some aircraft models recommendations from you guys in here, also maybe aircraft equipped with Rotax as it seems its a cheap to run engine judging by the comments. Preferably would be a 4 seater aircraft...

I must stress that less than £60 per hour in the UK is for a Rotax powered 2-seater on a permit. Not any Rotax 4-seaters on a permit that I can think of at the moment but there is the four seat Jabiru J400 which probably costs not much more to run. Or if you prefer to stick to Lycoming/ Continentals or similar (with a bigger fuel bill), have a look at the Jodel DR1050 or Vans RV-10.

[horizon flyer]

As a past CEO of a group owned aircraft buying one does not save money, but gives great operational flexibility. Renting is very restrictive. I suggest stick to a fixed gear fixed prop as add lots of costs. On Lycomings if operated less than 40 hours a month they will not make TBO according to Lycoming. the camshaft lobes will wear down due to the stupid location among the other design faults. So a Rotax may be better.